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idok Offline OP
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THis is my first post with doublegunshop, figured I'd better make it a good one.

Couple of weeks ago I was at a garage sale and spotted a couple of rifles in a corner that were not for sale, but went ahead and asked about them anyway.

So, 60 bucks later Im 2 guns heavier. Bought on the premise that one was a Springfield 1903 with "an interesting sport stock." The 2nd was an old Stevens 650 12 guage that got sold later that day for a 100 bucks.


So. As I was cleaning the 1903 I noticed it was engraved!
Did not notice this at first as there is a nice sheet of rust on the entire gun. Well, I just happened to be chatting on the phone with my dad when I found the engraving and when I told him that I think he bout had a heart attack. From that point he told me "Search that gun for G&H markings" By the time it was cleaned up I found a fully engraved magazine basplate and trigger guard, some nice work around the front sight and markings for .35 whelen

After speaking with G&H what they have told me is that the rifle is likely Kornbrath engraved, the stockwork done by Seymour Griffin himself and was a VERY early model. THe top of the barrel is stamped "No 154 Griffin & Howe New York, NY"


Wondering if there are any G&H experts on this forum as I would love to learn more about it!

I have a bunch of pictures of it, but cant figure out how to post them up

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I am sure someone will help you post some pictures.As I can't either. smile Whitey

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Welcome to the forum. If you want you can email pictures to me at mjpetrov @ acsalaska.net (remove spaces)


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The number falls into the correct range for an early 35-Whelen.

I'll post more after I see some pictures.


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idok Offline OP
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yep..There is no doubt in my mind of what it is....Tried to send you pictures, but they got returned...will try again now

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Please try sending them one at a time, sometimes that helps.

Not sure what the problem is, I checked my online box and it's MT.

Would someone else try to post his pictures please.


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I've tried to send you e-mails with lots of pictures attached before and they've bounced back to me. I think sending them one at a time will work.

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idok,
Please try sending them to Lynn@LRFliger.com and I will post for you if you wish. Send tonight if you can as I will be at Savage Fest all day Saturday.

Lynn

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Idok: I have to ask one question...In what state/city do you find a Griffin and Howe Sporter sitting in the corner of a Garage? To paraphrase that great line in "Dirty Harry", "I JUST GOT TO KNOW?"
TIA Jerry

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This is the kind of find that keeps me,and a host of others,prowling the garage,yard and estate sales.I hope the gun is in restorable condition with a good bore.

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idok Offline OP
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found it in Florida

where it had been stored leaned against the wall in a enclosed/utility trailer



its definatly shootable.....guy I got it from told me "this one will knock the acorns right off the tree!"


gonna try emailing those pix 1 at a time..

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Could we see the caliber markings and the buttplate?


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that is going to take some serious time by some who knows how to polish and a good engraver to put it right. Looks like it was a really nice gun.


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Booking African hunts, firearms import services

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Griffin & Howe:

Before Seymour Griffin teamed up with James V. Howe he, in the later years, started marking his rifles S. R. Griffin New York" in a banner on the forward part of the floorplate. In the very beginning of G&H this same practice continued with two banners on the forward part of the floorplate "Griffin & Howe, Inc. New York". These floorplates were completely engraved and some of them have the original owners names engraved on them as well. An early G&H flier shows many of these engraved floorplates in stock and the forward banners can be seen in the photos. When the barrel numbering started some of these engraved floorplates were used on the rifle as well and will be found on guns for several years after the start-up of G&H. I have reports on three and have pictures of one rifle that has no engraving on the floorplate or trigger guard save Griffin & Howe, Inc. New York engraved in a circle around the floorplate release hole.

There was a lot of experimenting in the early days on how the rifles were to be marked. Its appears that the original numbering plan was to number all the rifles with the same number but different calibers. A number 1 in caliber .30-06, .25-Whelen, .250-300, 7x57, 35-Whelen, .400-Whelen then start over with number 2 and have one of each caliber with that number. I have observed several identical single digit numbers which adds confusion to the rifle owner who might think he has the 3rd rifle made by G&H because the number on his rifle is 3.



Examples from my database:

Barrel No. Caliber
3 250-300
3 35 Whelen
4 25 Whelen
4 35 Whelen
6 250-300
6 30-06
7 30-06
8 35 Whelen
10 35 Whelen
10 7x57

For some reason G&H started using the two digit numbers again in 1925 on new calibers they introduced that year and on others using the commercial Mauser action.

Barrel No. Action Caliber Barrel No. Action Caliber
13 Mauser 375 H&H 23 Mauser 275 H&H
15 Mauser 375 H&H 24 Mauser 350 G&H
17 Mauser 375 H&H 25 Mauser 35 Whelen
18 Mauser 350 G&H 27 Mauser 400 Mag
19 Mauser 375 H&H 27 Mauser 416 Rigby
20 Mauser 416 Rigby 31 Mauser 350 G&H
20 Mauser 375 H&H 32 Mauser 30-06
21 Mauser 375 H&H 32 Mauser 350 G&H
21 Mauser 300 H&H 33 Mauser 350 G&H
21 Mauser 35-Wheln 34 Mauser 350 G&H
23 Mauser 350 G&H 36 Mauser 350 G&H


Griffin & Howe next assigned blocks of numbers to particular calibers.

Barrel Number Caliber Highest No. Recorded
101-150 .30-06 147
151-200 .35 Whelen 166
201-250 .400 Whelen 228
251-300 7X57 300
301-350 .250-3000 314
351-400 25 Whelen* 351
401-500 .30-06 494

* The .25 Whelen was a version of the modern .25-06 or .25 Niedner.

As you can see the popular calibers such as the .30-06 used up the blocks of numbers whereas calibers like the .25 Whelen show only one number, the first, out of a block of fifty numbers. This practice was abandoned at number 501 with the numbers from then on in sequence regardless of caliber.


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This is Griffin & Howe No. 611, which came into my possession in slightly better condition than that of your find. I sent it back to G&H for a full refurbishing job.







Considering the fact that your investment in the rifle stands at -$40.00 by my calculation, having it redone by G&H would cost far less than its actual value in refurbished condition, and I would not hesitate to do the same with your rifle.

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idok Offline OP
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XAUSA....I spoke with G&H a few days ago and will most likely end up sending it back to them...

But when I talked with them they were talking stock replacement, acid dipping and retouching up the engraving then reblue..


I mean, I understand wanting to return the rifle to its original glory..but at the same time, I have a hard time wanting to alter this rifle in ANY way given its history

Maybe Im not looking at this in the right fashion....That being said, I'd also like to add in that the cost of the restoration is NOT the issue


any and all input is welcome

THanks!

Scott

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Originally Posted By: idok
XAUSA....I spoke with G&H a few days ago and will most likely end up sending it back to them...

But when I talked with them they were talking stock replacement, acid dipping and retouching up the engraving then reblue..Scott

IIWY I wouldn't consider replacing the stock unless it has suffered some disaster that would prevent its safety in shooting. If the wood has shrunken away from the metal then it's a fairly simple matter to greatly improve its looks without replacement, and any cracks can be repaired easily during the process.

You'll need to have the engraving touched up but not necessarily COMPLETELY redone, depending upon the desired appearance after it's completed. I personally like a certain look of character provided by the visual evidence of long-term but careful hunting use, but others like a brand-new appearance. You have a golden opportunity to have this rifle look exactly as aged/used as YOU wish it to look, without compromising the pedigree if you have G&H do the work.

WONDERFUL find!
Regards, Joe


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First let me say; thanks Idok for sharing this with us. It is definitely what many of us hope we will find in our "prowling around". Secondly I am glad to see you are willing to invest in its restoration. Rough as it looks, I believe it will still be a worthy piece after the right hands get through with it.

I agree with JD about retaining the original stock if possible. I know MP refers to the Stock Hospital/Doctor often and has had some restored quite well. I am sure he will ring in on this subject.

Thanks again and I am sure glad this didn't wind up on the scrap heap.
Thaine


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I'd never replace the stock,,even with a new one done by G&H (no disrespect to them).
That's the heart and soul of the rifle and it's custom built history.
Restoring the original far better than having to explain that it looked 'just about like this one..' when it's gone.

I don't really see anything in the few photos that'd make me think twice about restoring the rifle completely.
I've seen a lot worse.
Take lots of pics during the restoration to document it's original and restored configuration.

Very nice find.

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Can you share with us the serial number of the action? I don't get to see many Number-caliber rifles that have the serial number.

How much of the work that is needed can you do yourself?



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Not sure what kind or how much advice you want but if that rifle was mine I would remove the stock ASAP.

The front sling swivel needs to be removed first. I would remove the grip cap and buttplate...everything.

Get all the metal away from the wood so you can stop any further rusting, I like Kroil.


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I can't speak for the OP, but I'll bet there are many of us that would love to hear how you'd proceed with a rifle like this one, Mr. petrov.

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Regardless of which way you go with this project this it what the rifle would have looked like when new or when refinished.





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Originally Posted By: dznnf7
I can't speak for the OP, but I'll bet there are many of us that would love to hear how you'd proceed with a rifle like this one, Mr. Petrov.


Right now I would not do anything until all the damage has been assessed. Sometimes the metal under the stock can be in worse shape then the rest.


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idok Offline OP
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The OP is another who would like as much advice as is willingly provided!

Im 37 and have been around firearms my whole life...but this rifle is in my opinion a piece of firearms history of the finest quality, and I have never owned anything of this historical/collectible quality before

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I think it can be preserved, I'm just not sure where to start. Do you feel comfortable taking it apart? If so we can post instructions if needed.

There is no rush on my part. I'll do what I can, and so will others, to help you.



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May I suggest that if you don't have a good set of screw drivers, get them first. A few days waiting to get good drivers is not going to make that much difference, a buggered screw is not what you want.
Next is to get the wood off as prevously suggested.

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Ditto on the screw drivers. I'll bet some of those screws are rusted in place and will need extra attention to break free, and buggered screw heads and gouged wood from tool slippage will just add to your woes.

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The Kroil that Michael Petrov mentioned is a good penetrating oil and rust stopper. It might be wise to let the small screws have an application to soak into and loosen the threads. I don't mean douse the area, but a light application that will wick into the threads. I find it works well if let to sit for a day or two.
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I respectfully disagree on the use of Kroil. It is OK for fasteners that are not really all that stuck, but in my experience, it has frequently failed to penetrate more than a couple threads deep on many screws that were not severely rusted. This has happened to me with Kroil many times even with repeated soakings over extended periods. There are much better alternatives out there in my opinion. I've had some successes with pure Oil of Wintergreen recently. I've been trying Burlite which is sold by W. E. Boyd who often posts here under the name of Docbill. It seems very good, but I haven't used it enough to give an honest glowing endorsement. A 50-50 mix of acetone and ATF works well, but it needs to be reapplied often for severely stuck screws because the acetone evaporates quickly. I do like Zep 45 and had good results with it in a very corrosive environment. I still have not tried Mouse Milk. Many guys on antique tractor forums swear by it. Has anyone here used it?

Obviously, this is an area of interest to me as I do a lot of work on old firearms and old farm tractors, etc. I've used literally dozens of brands and concoctions in a vain attempt to find a replacement for Cabot's Tasgon which was discontinued in the early 1980's due to it's creosote content. I have a small amount left which I only use when everything else fails. If you can find a partial can at a garage sale or flea market, buy it. It has worked on many things that appeared beyond hope. Even Tasgon will not help once galling has occurred, so I always preach patience and repeated, extended soakings along with applications of heat, cold, and shock to facilitate penetration. Some screws that surely would have been twisted off with agressive early attempts have broke free easily after several months of occasional application of a good penetrating oil. I have perhaps 2 gallons of Kroil in my shop. I continue to use it as a penetrant when it looks like a fastener is not severely stuck. I also use it on 0000 steel wool to remove rust on guns. But even there, WD-40 works better. All penetrating oils are fantastic when they work. And I know many feel Kroil is great. I just don't think it's much better than plain old kerosene. I'm basing my comments here on decades of what has and hasn't worked and literally thousands of applications.

Dittos on the use of quality gunsmithing screwdrivers. Just as important is the guy behind the screwdriver who knows how to use it and when to back off before doing real damage.


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That stock is fine and does not need to be replaced. It can be repaired and refinished along with the rest of the job.

Definitely have G&H do the work, or failing that, choose a gunsmith of national reputation to preserve the value of the piece. If it's restored by G&H it will be as valuable as it can be when you get it back, although I would suggest that a restoration by someone like Monte Mandarino would be as prized, if not moreso.

I may have missed it, but how is the bore/chamber?

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Good point. If the bore is trashed I would re-think how extensive the re-furb would be.

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idok Offline OP
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the bore is definatly shootable....I havent gotten to scrubbing the barrel out yet though
will do that next week when I get back into town..

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back from the dead!

rifle has been fully disassembled, cleaned and ready to be put back together after


the stock is still in need of repair...but I have shot this rifle about a dozen times and it is accurate as can be at 100 yards




Mr Petrov....do you know where I might procure a front sight HOOD for this rifle?

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Would love to see pictures of the cleaned up rifle. I checked through my stuff but do not seem to have the proper hood. You might ask G&H.


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Good morning,

Your rifle is quite interesting, I currently am visiting my son who is a gunsmith at Griffin & Howe.
I have shown them your photos and the y have several suggestions for you.

Let me know if I, they, they can help. FYI I am in the shop at the moment.

Scott

G&H 973-810-2269 and Cliff would help you with your rifle info

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Brought this back up. Just curious how this project turned out?

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ditto !

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The rifle has just been sitting in my safe

I really need to just sell it

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HI, I just returned to this thread after reading it some time ago. Do you still have the rifle and still want to sell it?

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