doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com In closing

When you close a side by side should you, 1) actuate the lever and close the barrels or 2) snap it shut without actuating the lever?
Inquiring minds want to know!
Lance

Most makers I have spoken with on this issue say to allow the bolt to "snap" shut. Theory - it is better to assure positive bolting than to try to minimize bolt wear.

DDA

Agree with Rocketman about letting it snap shut - which is different from slam shut.

+1 Agree with Rocketman/Jerry

Certainly not like I saw at a recent clay shoot. Hold gun in right hand by small of stock; slam shut with whip like motion to make noisy clunk. Pull trigger, thump butt with base of hand as hard as possible and pull trigger a second time; throw in boot (trunk) of car. Makes me wonder how long that Browning is going to last. Lagopus.....

On P guns,catch thr top lever with your thumb,or you will need a new top lever in rather short order.I have a box with broken top levers to make this point with Perrazi owners.Giacomo asked me to stress this when I sold and worked on them.

I know it is contrary to most opinions, but I ease the barrels closed and ease the toplever closed. If you look at a Beretta O/U that has been shot a lot and snapped shut, you can see the holes where locking pins engage barrels loosing their roundness and becoming oval. Also believe it saves wear on top latch and barrel shoulders of high volume Kguns. I carry idea over to Supers, M21's, etc; have never had a problem from doing thus, it makes me feel better and I can't be talked out of it.

I always thought that differing technique was dictated by the bolting system.
Rotary Bolt- snap shut
Others- lever eased
Bob Jurewicz

My stock guns, especially after reproof, are very tightly jointed on the bite and although I ease this jointing to make them easy to open without undue force, they still need to be 'shot in'.
Allowing the bolting to snap shut (not 'slam' shut!) means they are bolted to the correct degree by the sprung leverwork and they will settle in correctly.
Damping the action of the spring can only make then bolt at a lesser degree and I would be concerned that a 'step' could be created on the botling surface making it increasingly likely that the gun will not bolt fully.
Snapping a gun shut (repeat, not slaming) will allow the spring to do its job much more consistently than your thumb could ever discern.
Once a gun is fully 'shot in' I doubt whether it makes any real differance. If loosely bolted on the first shot, the recoil will probably settle the bolting to where it should be and the second shot would be bolted where it should be.
If it loosens the bolting, the gun probably needs rejointing anyway!
But then what do I know?

Not long, if it was a Browning O/U of recent vintage. I am around a lot of clay shooters, high volume, and without exception Brownings wear out, to the point that they open themselves after the first shot, quicker than any other commonly seen clays gun. I have no bone to pick with Browning at all, but this is fact. They just won't last under high volume shooting, without being re-bolted regularly.

I don't think easing them shut would make a difference, either.

SRH

True, two of the loosest Brownings I ever saw was one owned by someone who used to shoot skeet in the Olympics; many years ago in the 60's/70's and who left it with me for a while for safe keeping when he went abroad for a time. The other was previously owned by a local Gamekeeper who had it given him by a high volume clay shooter. The former gun would have had shots put through it close to a seven figure sum. Lagopus.....

This is a confusing topic and always has been for me. Giacomo always told me to close the action of a Perazzi with pressure on the top lever and when action is closed, release the top lever. I have always done this with Perazzi and Browning superposed. I have been told just the opposite on English guns by David Trevallion as well as other English gunsmiths. I think Krieghoff guns are built to not be gently closed, but NOT slammed shut either. So, I'm still a little confused as to the BEST method of closing the actions on all these guns!

I will add my thoughts on this subject. First of all no Doublegun should be "Slammed" shut, leave the slamming to the semi-autos. Bolt wear comes about primarily from rubbing action. Consequently to my thinking the bbbls shoud be closed firmly till they stop & held there as the bolt makes contact, thus not allowing the bolt to rub all the way into its seat drawing the bbls down in the process. As stated if the lever is eased over it may not seat firmly & need to be nudged in with the top lever. When allowed to snap in this is automatically taken care of, but in either method by assuring the bbls are fully seated the rubbing action of the bolt is minimized. "IF" you just close the bbls enough to alloow the end of the bolt to enter the notch & then let the bolt draw the bbls down then rubbing action is "Maximized".
Along this line I currently own two doubles which do not have compensating bolts. One is British, the other German, both are over 100 years old & have double under bolts with a Doll's Head. The notches & bolt are simply parallel to the flats, lever comes to center to a stop, always has & always will. The bolts were apparently made with the minimum amount of clearance to allow them to close. When closed as above described rubbing friction is essentially eliminated. Though both appear well used, but not abused neither shows any appreciable bolt wear at all, as both still lock up tightly.
To my mind it is probably inconsequential whether you ease the bolt in & then seat it or allow it to snap in as long as in the process you "Minimize' the rubbing action. It seems to me that one is more apt to allow the bolt to seat the bbls by the easing in method than by closing the bbls smoothly but firmly & allowing the bolts to then snap home.

Correct me if I am wrong, but in my mind, proper and adequate lubrication of ALL bearing points is more important than the manner in which an action is closed. Specifically, all bearing points on the lumps, including the area where the bolts engage the lumps, need some sort of viscous hydrocarbon lubrication. Hinge pin, trunions, and forearm latch all need lubrication as well.

Certainly in the case of the Purdey Thumbhole type opening guns; which are described as 'Snap' actions or the Number 1 and Number 2 Purdey snap action do close this way. I have a Number 2 snap and it would be very dificult to close by holding the thumb lever whilst closing. Gently bring the action up to the barrels and there is a distinct snap! on closing. As this was the original type of action to the Purdey double underbolts seen most commonly on doubles today I suppose it was meant to work this way. Lagopus.....

method #2. I think we discussed this a year or, two ago and most mfg. recommend method #2

Stan, that's contrary to what I see on my XS Sport 20 gauge.

The gun has been in moderate target service for seven years now, and is still as tight as when new. The lever is still in the same place.

My gun is used with a light grease which is renewed every outing. I allow it to snap closed as it was designed to do.

Superposed Brownings might need new bolting once in a while, but the Citori? I don't see that.

As far as the Citori,a number of the shooters in Va use them for skeet (the first 4 x 4 shot by a Va shooter was by a young man using a used Citori that I maintained for him).The top lever will open between shots after many shots.The gun will misfire lower barrel also. In both cases, replace the top lever spring and the hammer springs every 2 years.Works every time and no bolt replacement.

I'm happy yours is giving good service, but you did say moderate service, and 20 ga. Once they get worn it is trouble, brother. One of my best shooting friends shoots one, but he is learning. He just got it back from Browning, and it already opening itself after the first shot. I cannot tell you how many I have personally witnessed do this over the years. I am referring strictly to 12 ga. guns. I've never seen a 20 ga. with enough rounds through it to qualify as a serious target gun, though I am sure there are some out there.

I am not dissing Brownings for field use, or for casual target work, just stating what I know to be fact for high volume service. One of the most amazing things I have seen lately, among serious clay shooters, is a Ruger Red Label owned and shot by one tournament shooter of Lake City, GA. I was with him earlier today at a major tournament and asked how long he had been shooting that Ruger. Twelve years, was the time I think he said. But what he said next knocked my socks off. He is up to almost 600,000 rounds through it and has never had it rebolted, never had an ejector break, never even been in the shop for anything! His previous Red Label had one ejector break in many years of service, but he said he thinks he broke it himself when he pulled the fore-end off one time and accidentally twisted it sideways as he did.

Now, I'm not a big Ruger fan (of their shotguns) but, I have to admit, that is truly amazing, and a testament to their engineering.

SRH

They won't always last two years, Wm.

SRH

It's a lot like closing a car door. You don't slam it, nor do you ease it closed and use your butt to make the lock catch. You close it with just enough force to do the job.

They are called 'snap actions' because you just need to close them and they snap the bolts home. Toby about covered it. Keep you thumbs off the lever - that is just for opening it!