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Apr 29th, 2024
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,832 Likes: 13
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2003
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Does anyone know when Charles Daly/ Lindner started & finished using Witten Excelsior steel?
Did Daly ever us Witten Excelsior & Damascus at the same time?
Thanks
OWD
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 927 Likes: 3
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 927 Likes: 3 |
OWD,
I can answer more completely later in the day as I don't have my catalog or database in front of me, but I can provide some information now.. .
Lindner sourced Prussian Dalys were produced with both damascus barrels and steel barrels concurrently for a relatively short period - i.e., a customer could choose damascus or steel as an option. I need to double check the catalog dates (i.e., when damascus was last advertised/when steel barrels were first advertised.)
Prior to WWI, Prussian Daly steel barrels were either Krupp or Witten steel. The lower Daly models used Krupp steel barrels and the diamond quality models used Witten or Krupp special steel barrels. Of course there are exceptions to this.
The was a significant production gap in Daly guns after the WWI ended in 1918. It was several years before SD&G began offering Daly guns again. If you look at the post war catalogs, you'll notice an obvious gap - i.e., they do not advertise Daly guns. When SD&G did resume "production", Roeschling steel was seen in the higher grade models in place of the Witten. Again, I am sure there are exceptions to this - as there always are.
More to follow,
Ken
Last edited by Ken Georgi; 08/30/12 11:29 AM.
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Cool. Thanks for the info.
I'm looking forward to learning more.
OWD
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Joined: Dec 2001
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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OWD,
A few more pieces of information from period SD&G catalogs that might be useful:
1895 - Damascus barrels only
1899 - Damascus and steel barrels offered
1902 - Damascus and steel barrels offered
1903 - Damascus and steel barrels offered
1906 - Steel barrels only
The highest numbered damascus Lindner Daly I have recorded is #1109 which is circa 1901. (Note this serial number is from the later HAL over crossed pistol serial number range, not the earlier crown over crossed pistols range).
I wish I could provided more defnitive catalog information but there are significant gaps in the catalog information I have been able to collect over the years.
Regards,
Ken
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Joined: Jan 2003
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,832 Likes: 13 |
Thanks for the info. I appreciate it.
Do you know when the Regent Diamond was added to the lineup?
BTW: about how many Daly/Lindner guns were made? What's the highest serial # you've seen?
Have a great Labor Day.
OWD
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 927 Likes: 3
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 927 Likes: 3 |
OWD,
The answer to your first question is pretty straightforward, and the answer to your second question is much more complex. I'll understand if your eyes glaze over as I try to explain the second.
1. When was the "regent diamond" quality gun introduced into the Daly line-up?
The earliest SD&G catalog reference I have to the regent diamond quality model (i.e., the model 500 SxS) is 1906. It is not in the 1903 catalog so its introduction falls somewhere between those two dates.
2. How many Daly/Lindner guns were made?
Just to make sure I understand your question, are you asking how many Prussian Daly guns, specifically sourced from H.A. Lindner were made? The reason I ask is that not all Prussian Dalys are Lindners, and not all Lindners are Dalys.
Assuming I understand your question correctly, let me state for the record that I don't know how many Lindner Dalys were produced. I have a reasonable guess based on an extrapolation from the database, but that it what it is, a guess/estimate. Some may disagree with my estimate.
Since there are no surviving SD&G records, nor any surving Heinrich Lindner records that have come to light, my thoughts are derived mostly into what I can discern from the database of Daly guns that have been reported to me by a collection of fellow Daly enthusiast. The original databse was created by Bill Wise and Michael Petrov, and it now contains almost 400 guns.
So how many Lindner Dalys do I think were produced over Heinrich Lindner's 42 year run (1874 - 1916)? About 4,000, maybe a few more. Again, this estimate is based on what I have recorded in the database and what I have observed looking at Prussian Dalys for the last dozen years. I'm happy to delve further into the details, but I'll leave it at that.
3. What is the highest Lindner Daly serial number recorded?
The key to this question is to recognize that Lindner Dalys have two distinct serial number ranges, the "early" crown over crossed pistol marked guns and the later HAL over crossed pistol marked guns. 1892 is the delineation bewteen the two ranges (sort of).
Within the early range (crown marked), the highest number yet recorded is #3950. In the second serial number range (HAL marked), the highest serial number is 26XX. The owner of the last one has asked me not provide the details so I am respecting his wishes.)
While Heinrich Lindner was mostly out of the Daly production post-WWI, he was still somehow involved in the trade, possibly as a liaison for other Suhl makers (my speculation.) A couple of post-WWI Prussian Dalys have been noted with Lindner marks (the trap gun in the for sale section is a good example). My speculation is that these may be left over stock due to the interruption of the war.
Hopefully that helps.
Ken
Last edited by Ken Georgi; 08/31/12 09:14 AM.
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Joined: Dec 2001
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
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Raimey,
The source for establishing the 1911 introduction of the Daly SBT was a SD&G catalog, specifically catalog No. 52. Catalog No 52 is a listed as a "Supplement to Catalogues 1910 and 1911 Spring". In it is the Daly SBT is noted (along with the first mention of the Daly "Infallible Single Trigger".) The SBT is not listed in the 1909 SD&G catalog.
That all said, if shooters were winning matches shooting Daly SBTs in 1909, the actual introduction must have preceded their mention in the catalog by a year or two.
Thanks for the information.
Ken
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2003
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Awesome info, guys. I'm always amazed by what a person can learn here.
BTW: did SD&G start offering Francottes after the Daly's dried up? Or did they offer them at the same time?
Thanks
OWD
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Joined: Jan 2006
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,427 Likes: 315 |
Vou Lengerke & Detmold was the primary Francotte distributor and the gun was popular at the 1898 GAH http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1898/VOL_31_NO_02/SL3102019.pdf According to the official list of guns, shells and powder the following total is given: Parker 56, Smith 42, Greener 20, Francotte 17, Remington 11, Cashmore 9, Lefever 8, Scott 8, Dalv 6, Winchester 5, Colt 4, Purdey 2, Richards 2, Churchill, Baker, Hollenbeck, Forehand and Staunard 1 each. Francotte SBTs were available in 1895. Read under 'Stand 77' http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1895/VOL_25_NO_09/SL2509025.pdf
Last edited by Drew Hause; 09/03/12 09:18 PM.
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