doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Spanish Doubles

I'm not a fan, but some seem pretty well made. Garbi, AYA and the old Arriettas come to mind, but to me the list pretty much stops there. But then I have not had the best of luck with them.

When did the Spanish guns get their bad reputation? I have seen literature from the 50s when the Spanish guns were well thought of. I believe some of the problems came during the embargo's of steel during the Franco reign. But I don't know the good years and the bad years of Spanish guns. I know they have gone though an up turn. I would appreciate any thought out help here. Thanks and please no praise for Ugartacheria I've had my fill of those.

There were some really cheesy Spanish handguns produced in the 1920-1940s. This was not just a Spanish phenomenon either, France, Italy and Germany all had what you could call "severe price point" handguns, but, folks seem to remember the Spanish guns.
I think some of the problems occur when a manufacturer tries to make the leap from small scale to large scale producer. Double shotguns don't lend themselves well to this leap, not as well as more modern designs, anyway, simply for the amount of hand work that has to go into them. Couple this with the price point being dictated to same manufacturer by a distant importer, and it has the possibility of being a receipe for disaster. We live in times where it is expected to take X amount of time to fit an action, and someone is constantly harping on that guy fitting the action to get it done, a little sooner.
Cole Haugh told me he had decided, based on his experience working on Spanish doubles, that when a gun comes in, no matter the problem, the bits get re-hardened. He might be onto something. I hope that for the effort he puts into doing that, the outcome is much improved and he sees fewer guns a second or third time.
I've heard of problems with all three of the manufacturers you listed as "pretty good". I also witnessed the uncasing of a brand new William Powell boxlock, circa mid 1980s, that had so many problems develop that the owner simply gave up on it, three seasons into ownership. It was traded for an old English gun. The gun cost most of what I made in a year, back then. It looked good, coming out of the box. Note that this was before Powell's had Spanish guns for sale.
I think it will be tough to nail down years that are good or bad. I also don't believe that a single improperly hardened sear, in a random double, should condemn a whole countries output of double shotguns, either, as some seem to believe.

Best,
Ted

Same way with those Moss'eburg pumps eh...

Hi pooch, boy a very complex question in a lot of ways. The era of the cheap Spanish guns and the "Soft" steel legend really came into being in the late 50's thru the late 60's early 70's. The guns made by Victor Sarasqueta and imported by Stoeger were good quality guns. Stoeger did not import junk from Spain. They did request features from VS for what Americans thought a double should be (BTFE, PG,ST, vent rib etc). Once the Stoeger imports became somewhat successful, other importers jumped on the band wagon. The guns that they imported were by and large cheap "Price Point" guns (every gun is a price point gun, but the term has come to mean cheap & low quality). The importer would seek out a maker, who would be willing to make whatever gun and specs the importer wanted for a set price. The importer needs to make a profit, so they would request this, that and the other thing and only pay the maker X amount. The maker would complete the gun and would pretty it up on the outside, but in order for the maker to get a profit had to cut somewhere. Mostly on the inside of the action, where parts were not hardened properly, lower quality materials, bbl regulation was hit or miss and not a lot of time was spent on them to ensurea good gun. The guns of course showed this over use and thus we have the cheap throw away after one season gun. Spanish steel is some of the best in the world, even during the embargo, their steel was good quality, a lot of the meterials came from Sweden and other parts of the europe for this steel. The problem came in with the hardening and quality of steel used on price point guns. Like anything else, steel can be good or bad all depends on what you want the how much you want to pay. So the myth and legend of all Spanish steel being cheap came into being. The 80's saw DIARM come into being, this was the death of most of Spains smaller makers, it did in one sense usher in a new era of Spanish gunmaking. The firms that survived it (AyA being one) and those who did not join now started to get their Sh** together and started to make higher quality well regarded guns. There is a lot more to this story and I past over a few areas, but this is just a down and dirty answer. I'm sure others will chime in with some points I've missed or expand on what I've said, I'm looking forward to hearing them.

All the best!

Greg

Spanish makers got their bad reputation when they were building "price point" guns for American importers (I guess in the 50's,60's, and 70s). But even makers that were known for cheap guns were capable of building top notch pieces.... but most of those never left Spain.

They've always built quality stuff, as they do now. But it was the cheap imports that gave them a bad name.

Adam

Good post Ted, you bet me to it by a few minutes! EXCELLENT point about cheap/cheaper guns from other countries. Not many folks consider that aspect. Good call!

Greg

I remember reading this on the Spanish forum on Shotgunworld.com (posted by a member from Spain). He said something like "I am shocked you Americans like Spanish guns considering we sent you all of our crap!." This is indeed true... many of Spain's finest guns are still in Spain.

Adam

There is no difference in what country it was made, the importers are the ones to blame. They want a cheaper product to sell cheaper and still make money, and in so doing this the manufacturer has to cut steps to make this gun at importers price.

This is not only the Spanish guns but other European guns as well.

You get yourself a good one and you'll love it. I had a great sidelock built by AMR and it was not only beautiful but it was one tough SOB!!!
Yet my Arrieta that I bought in Spain while in the Navy was prone to malfunction even though it was a double trigger. But, it was one beautiful shotgun.

Q: When did Spanish guns begin to get a bad reputation?

A: 1914

Q: Why?

A: Long story. The short version is this.

There is no Spanish gun industry, as we here in the States use the word 'industry'. Rather each gun maker is a small shop (generally fewer than ten employees), and produce fewer than 100 guns a month. All guns are handmade. There is little or no mechanization. Each maker buys the parts he needs to assemble a firearm from a network of artisans, each of which specializes in a specific part or small assembly.

The Great War broke out in 1914. France, Germany, England, and Russia expected a short, victorious war, and to be 'home before the leaves turn'. We now know just how wrong they were, but it came as a surprise to the warring parties. England, France, and Germany all turned to Spain as a source for sidearms. Small companies like Beistegui, Echave, and Unceta, all of which produced fewer than a hundred handguns a month, were called on to deliver five to ten thousand firearms a month.

It was a disaster. The producers of small parts, like hammers, who traditionally might turn out five hammers a day, were pressed to deliver fifty hammers a day. Old men, children, and widows who had never made a firearms part in their lives began making gun parts. They had no experience, just a sample to work from. Some had good materials and some didn't. Some knew what heat treatment was, and some didn't.

Lots and lots of handguns were delivered. All of them worked a few times. Some of them were quite well made. Most weren't. And that's where the legend of 'soft Spanish steel' comes from. It's also from whence we get the 'Ruby' pistol collecting specialty. 'Ruby' was a very common model name for pistols delivered to the warring parties, and they were notorious for mechanical problems. People who collect WWI Spanish handguns are frequently referred to as 'Ruby Collectors'.

This is the origin of the distaste for Spanish firearms generally.

The story on Spanish shotguns is similar. Some hardware chain in the US finds a small Spanish shotgun maker and orders fifty shotguns a month for six months. The Spanish gun maker was capable of making ten guns a month. See above.

With shotguns, there is an added wrinkle. Here in the US we are accustomed to shotguns designed to do everything, including upland bird, water fowl, turkey, deer, and bear. Spanish shotguns aren't built that way. Spanish shotguns are like golf clubs; each gun is made for a specific purpose. Light game guns (a 12 gauge at six and a half pounds) is intended for light use in upland bird hunting. It's made to be carried a lot, fired a little, and used with one to one and an eighth ounce lead shot charge at 1200 fps. Shoot that gun with one and a half ounces at 1500 fps loads, the gun doesn't last long, and the ignorant owner complains of 'bad Spanish guns'. Next time you go out for a round of golf, try teeing off with a putter. It's just amazing how poorly putters are made :-)