doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion Double Rifles, Paradox Guns & Gauge Rifles @ doublegunshop.com Berntheisel 12 X 12 over 20 gauge paradox

I recently saw a unique (at least to me) drilling by that was a 12 X 12 smoothbore over a 20 gauge paradox barrel. The rifling in the 20 gauge barrel was just the last couple of inches. It had sights and double triggers with a safety type mechanism where a safety normally would be to swith to the lower barrel. Where one would normally see "SAFE" it said "BALLE" When you push it forward the front trigger shoots the lower 20 gauge paradox barrel. It had a Greener style safety on the left side.

I am looking for any information at all about this gun including any comparable values. Feel free to PM me if you want the information confidential. I am supposed to get some pictures of the proof marks soon which I will provide when I can.

Thanks.




[IMG]http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj304/romac2/Shotguns/Bertheisel4.jpg[/IMG

I assume the name is CH. BERNTHEISEL FILS A NANCY? The name & the Balle term for Kugel makes me think a Belgian sourced sporting weapon and/or a French firearms mechant in Nancy, France.

A few of the craftsmen are Frederic Berntheisel was born in 1838 and I think was in Lun�ville. Louis Berntheisel born in 1867 may have been the son and it looks like the firm faltered in 1924.

Anxious to see the marks

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

This gun looks like it would be a heck of a lot of fun to go stalking deer with. Finally got some additional pictures:

Max Knoll is involved, huh? That explains a lot.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Max Knoll seems to have hung out shingles in Berlin, Liege & Suhl. He began in 1887 and it may have been a joint effort with H. Leue but he appears to have 1 foot in Suhl & the other in Liege till say 1921. He had several patents as well as at least one D.R.G.M. being Nr. 419210 of 1908/1909 for attaching multiple tubes of sporting weapons. He more than likely will have other D.R.G.M.s. In 1921/1922 he looks to have concentrated his effort to Berlin. Hard to tell as he disappears in the shadows from time to time.

http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20i%20j%20k/a%20knoll%20gb.htm

For the moment and until additional info is gleaned, the action may be that of Carl Lohse, being D.R.P. 174828 of 1904, under Max Knoll's umbrella:

http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20l/a%20leue%20et%20knoll%20gb.htm


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

It seems that Berntheisel of Luneville contributed to the development of slugs as well as had a shooting range. Circa 1910 a Mr. Lafrogne, farmer, filed a lawsuit that his farm was in danger due to the shooting range. A best management plan was put in place with slopes and banks to calm his fears. Being centered around slug development may account for the state of the lower tube.

I believe Maison Guichard was an apprentice at Berntheisel of Luneville.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Thanks for the information Raimey. If you look carefully at the bottom barrel in the first picture of my second post you can see a proof mark stamped that is "CH B RAYE". This is listed in the Belgium Proof Mark list as the mark for guns with rifled chokes.

There are a lot of typical Belgain proof marks also. I'd need to study it in detail to decipher the rest of it.

Thanks to Marc for forwarding the following images of a Berntheisel Luneville - Max Knoll Suhl drilling. As far as I know it is not a paradox but I wanted to continue the Berntheisel thread as well as note that the Berntheisel-Max Knoll sourcing seems to have been a strong one.












Noted as being a 16(70mm)X16 over 9,3X72R. Proofs are not noted but look to be German and the name Knoll must be on the standing breech.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

All indications are that these Imperial Eagles, single & doubleheaded, are trademarks for a maker utilizing a specific steel types and are location sensitive. I don't think there will be a large pool of these maker's trademarks, but the Crown over Eagle over Krupp Stahl is going to point to a maker.

Just like this 1896 trademark that was noted as slated for pistol barrels submitted by Jean Heinen fabricant d'armes, rue Duvivier 5, � Li�ge




Choke marks and one that looks to be Krupp Fluss-stahl Essen. Must have had a sublet on the permission to make Krupp

Marks(Krupp Stahle) akin to this one on the a A. Kleszewski(of Berliner Waffen und Munition Industrie), Berlin W.8, Friedrichstra�e 73

Kind
Regards,

Raimey
rse