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Forums10
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Apr 29th, 2024
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 641 Likes: 2
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 641 Likes: 2 |
My take -- 21H in either carbine / rifle, 21F full stock all with no integral mounts but sometimes claw mounts.
22H in either carbine / rifle, 22F full stock all with integral mounts. All models were a small ring, standard length Mauser, could be had with either DTSs similliar in design to the Oberndorf Mauser(integral to the bottom metal) / single trigger. All could be had with either a butter knife / round bolt handle. A factory scope could be ordered with the 22 series and possibly the 21 but I have never run across one, I think cost kept the combos in the rare category.
The switch from 21 to 22 came around 1953. Mine is a 22H made in 1954-integral mounts with factory scope. FWIW - TTBOMK
Your take is the same as mine, although I have never seen a half stock carbine version, one without double set triggers, or one with a round bolt handle. I have seen examples for sale where the bolt handle had been altered for low scope mounting, and in those cases, the bolt handle usually had a round knob. I have owned two rifles (8X57JS and 7X64) and two full stock carbines (8X57JS and 6.5X57). All had butter knife bolt handles and all but the 8X57JS full stock carbine had the integral mounts. That carbine had a knurled receiver ring, much like that on my Model S commercial Mauser sporter in 9X57.
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Joined: Apr 2006
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Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 641 Likes: 2 |
I am Slovakian (on my father's side) and in WW2- the British Bren in, of course, .303 and not our 30-06) had some advantages over our BAR-- The Bren (Bruno-Enfield merged) had a 30 rd. top set box magazine (about 10:30 on the clock position) which meant the operator could get closer to the ground (deck) when firing from the prone position- and unlike the BAR with the two-fire position trigger assembly, the Bren had a better and less complicated trigger assembly and a slower cyclical fire rate- darn fine weapon, IMO. Every magazine configuration has its advantages and disadvantages. The Japanese Nambu machine gun used a magazine arrangement much like that of the Bren. Marines found that the protruding magazine was a sure means of locating a machine gun hidden in tall grass. Both the Johnson light machine gun and the German Fallschirmjaegergewehr (FG 42) used magazines which stuck out the side, but the weight of a full magazine could make it difficult to hold the weapon upright. The 20 round BAR magazine does not protrude very far and creates no problem when firing using the bipod. The BAR had two cyclic rates and an experienced operator could fire single shots with it. The main problem with the BAR is its weight, because not only did the BAR Man have to carry the 20 pound +/- gun, he had to carry a belt with 12 magazines weighing 2 1/2 pounds apiece loaded. In the Marine Corps, we used three BAR's to a squad, one for every four men, so the fire power was terrific, but at the cost of having to hump the ammunition. (The Assistant BAR Man also got to carry 12 magazines). Traditionally, the shortest man in the four man fire team carried the BAR. I know, because it was frequently me.
Last edited by xausa; 12/07/12 11:32 PM.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 527
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 527 |
What I called the H (half stock) "carbine" is likely the most common encountered has a 20" barrel, DSTs and a butterknife handle in either the 21 / 22 series.
The "rifle" has a ?23"? barrel in either 21H / 22H. I've only ever handled one 21H rifle many years ago, rather rough but in hind sight I should have bought it.
The F (full stock / mannlicher) series 21 / 22 most likely used the 20" versions. Not a lot of info. (cataloges etc.) on any of these out there.
As far as available calibres they came in 6.5, 7, 8x57 and 7x64 to the best of my knowledge.
Perhaps the more "knowing" will chime in. --- John
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 742
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 742 |
I made a "practical" decision to pass on a 22F here in Dallas with rifling so sharp it would have cut you, and NO oil staining or wear on the stock. !00% blue, too. It was 8x57J and I already had two drillings and one BBF with that caliber. But for some reason I am still pining, and it is long gone. No scope mount, double trigger gun, butterknife bolt of course...Steve
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5
Boxlock
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Boxlock
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5 |
fullstocks were made in Carbine and Rifle length models.
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 20
Boxlock
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Boxlock
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 20 |
I have/had 21 and 22 in half,full and the rare 3/4 stock.The 3/4 was not an import,however I have two,one in 30/06 and 7/57. I just sold a 21F in 8x60. I've no standard on the dovetail mounts and round tops,I've had both with a date stamp of 1948.
How's that for mixing up the info...I'll try to gather a few photos for you.
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 20
Boxlock
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Boxlock
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 20 |
A 21 with a 3/4 length stock in 7x57 
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 641 Likes: 2
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 641 Likes: 2 |
I have a full stock carbine in 6.5X57, a half stock rifle in 7X64 and another half stock rifle in 8X57JS. All have integral scope blocks.
I had a full stock carbine in 8X57JS, but since it lacked integral blocks, I parted with it. The receiver ring was beautifully knurled, and I couldn't bear to desecrate it with drilling and tapping for a mount. In retrospect, I might have used a G&H side mount.
Well, I know where it is, and chances are I could get it back, if I really wanted to, but I think I would have to rechamber it to 8X64S to improve on the performance.
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 641 Likes: 2
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 641 Likes: 2 |
If anyone is interested, there is a nice 21H listed here: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=328021103I already have one of this caliber, so I pass the information along with the comment that the starting price seems very reasonable.
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,588 Likes: 9
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,588 Likes: 9 |
That is interesting, I always thought that the 22F was only available in full stock. I think it came chambered in 6.5;7;and 8 mm.
I would bet that the only difference between the 21 and 22 was barrel length. 20 inch for the carbine or model 22, and 22 to 23 inch for the model 21. That would allow for four versions. A model 21F would not be good looking!
Craig
Bringing this thread back from the archives. When I bought this one, it was sold as a Model 22, but who knows, it could be a Model 21. What I have read is that the Model 21 was a carbine and the Model 22 the rifle. (Or the reverse.....  ) The designation 'F' was for Full Stock and the 'H' is for Half Stock. Whatever the actual model and stock, they are very nice rifles with some interesting features. 24" barrel chambered in 8x57.  
Mike
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