doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Fabrique National SXS

Looking for imfo on FN SXS sn# 1950. Thought it may be Browning Custom House but no imfo. from them. Two barrel set 20g. & 28g. highly engraved lots of gold on receiver and barrels, by Angelo Bee. High grade wood (30 + lpi) checkering butt checkered as well. Engrave on barrels Custom built for A. Giannone, Jr. A great looking 100% gun but need some help with any thoughts. Barrels engraved Fabrique National - Leige. What do I have here ??

Thanks,
Bayflooring

I have just bought an FN 16 gauge boxlock, I could find very little information on it.
My gun is serial #12496, I was told it was made in 1924.
If you find a source of information, I would like to hear about it.
Thanks, Pete

I also have tried to find information on a 12 ga. sidelock, assisted opening, chopper lump barrels, Greener cross-bolt, ejectors, Anson type forend release. Serial # 6125. Written on gun Fabrique Nationale de Armes, de Guerre, Herstal Belgique. 72cm barrels, (28 1/2"), 65mm chamber (2 1/2"). Went to the web site for FN, emailed the U.S.A. sddress and the email came back with a 4 word response, "No informaton on gun", couldn't even take the time to tell me where to look. Then tried FN in Belgium, email came back "no address found". Also tried Browning site, if you want to call it that, everthing is like a mystery there. Couldn't get information there either.
A few people on this site gave what information they could, but could not find year of manufacture. Geno said of the ones he has seen, in his opinion weren't that good. I can't believe a gun with those features is not a well made gun. I would just like to find somewhere a site or book on these guns and the different grades. Now it's getting to a point where I really want to find answers on these guns, why so much mystery?
Good luck and keep us posted if you do find information, maybe you will get lucky on the FN site.

Does anyone know how to contact Angelo Bee ? Also, any link or contact at FN for imfo or certification.
Thanks,
Bayfloor

bayflooring and JDW try this site: http://www.littlegun.be
Pete

Thanks Pete, did you get any information on yours. I emailed him and we will see if I get a reply.

JDW, I didn't get much information, mostly because of the poor quality of my photos. But I did find it was made in 1924.
Pete

I have an old FN SxS catalog (hardbound)...it shows only boxlocks in many different grades...If you send me a close-up of the right side of the action, I will try to match it with the photos in the catalog and reply with images of that model (from the catalog) ....at least you'll know what model you have...this offer is for boxlocks only, as there are no sidelocks listed in this catalog...you can send send the image to robertchambers@adelphia.net

I seem to recall something about FN being heavily damaged by bombing or fire and they lost many records. May have been mentioned in the Browning Super book.

Robert I have sent you a picture of my FN boxlock.
Did you get it?

Pete

Yes I got it ...and your shotgun is in there...Also I found another FN SxS brochure (in English also) that shows exploded drawings and component parts with several pictures of the guns being produced by women and assembled and tested by men...It says 12 and 16ga only and that they were produced with chopper lump barrels, some with the Greener cross bolts and some with the Purdy bolts, which is what yours looks like...yours is the "Standard Grade"...Then something else different, it says that the frames are hardened and blued!!!...It goes on to say that they can also had with "Holland type" ejectors, but when you look at the component parts, there is that sliding tongue on the forend that I associate with the Holland/Deforney ejector system...theres alot of interesting stuff...I loaned my digital camera for the weekend or you would have recieved my digital responce by now...hopefully this evening... there is something else...it says the guns innards of of the highest grade production standards, material selection, and heat treating...I didn't have these catalogs when last I owned a FN SxS or probably would not have sold it...

Forgot to ask...does yours have ejectors or chopper lump (demi-bloc) barrels? Does your forend iron have that distinctive sliding tongue above the hinge radius? Perhaps you could send, or better yet, post pictures of the proof and touch marks for an accurate assessment of when your gun was produced.

In the 1911 "Alfa" catalog there is one FN shotgun listed. Description as follows;
"" Ejector gun made by machinery in the Fabrique Nationale, system Anson & Deeley, prime Coquerill steel barrels, polished deep black, patent fore-end, horn cap, English insertion, nitro tested, independent English ejectors.""
The picture shows an unengraved action body with a single scallop on rear wall, some sculpting at forward end of bar as opposed to the "Square box" of many A&D actions. Also shown is; double under bolts, cross bolt & side clips. Listed in 12 & 16 ga's @ 275 Mark.
I suspect these guns were well made of good quality materials, but not in the class we consider "Best"

I like that littlegun site. He is warning Belgians not to vote for the socialists because they are promoting "stupid and dangerous " gun laws! Fight the good fight, men!

David

OK ..I'll be sending a couple of pics in a few minutes...just a note to 2-piper...the catalog says Cockerill or Krupp...I can find no dates on either...let me know if there is other flavors of Belgian doubles your interested in...

Robert, I'm sorry I didn't respond sooner, my power has been out all day.
My gun does not have ejectors,it does have the greener crossbolt.
Although I know what a chopper lump barrel is, I don't know how to recognise it.
Thanks very much for the information. I'll send youy some more pictures. I would post them here but I don't know how.
Pete

Robert;
The catalog I was quoting from is the Adolf frank Export catalog known as "Alfa" dated 1911, a gun digest reprint. I did a little further looking & discovered I had skipped another page containg 3 models of FNs. All seem to be the same design & are stated to be quadruple bolted, though I see only the double underbolts & a crossbolt, don't know what they are calling the 4th one. All do have side clips & are extractor guns. first one is unengraved @ 156 Mark, next has "Arabesque" engraving @ 204 mark & the last has "Artistic Dragon" engraving @ 228 Mark. All available in 12 or 16 ga. In "This" catalog the only bbl steel mentioned on the FNs is Coquerill. According to an exchange table in front of catalog, subject to slight fluctuations, the 1911 US Dollar was equal to 4,20 Marks (4 Reichsmark, 20 pfennig). I am certain this was not the entire FN line of the day, but only what Alfa listed. One would certainly think they would have offered engraved versions of thier ejector model as well as the extractor gun.

Sorry your email bounced...I'll clean out my mailbox and let you know so that you can re-send the photos...I will save your photos for anyone else seeking the same data in the future, if that's alright with you?...There's a new email on it's way to you with 5 pics of the chopperlump system plus 4 other pages...It seems strange that FN would refer to the chopper lump system as a demi-block...perhaps it is both...please do not re-send your pics until I send you the next 5 jpegs...were the first pictures the info you've been lookin' for?

Miller...that exchange table is not in my original Alfa catalog (1903?)...I'm gonna pencil that 4.2 to 1 in my catalog for future drooling purposes...unfortunately mine is in German text

Robert, I would like to hear your thoughts on the definition of "Demi-Block". I have read that it was simply another term for the chopper-lump, also that it applied to the "Dovetail Chopper-Lump". I also recall seeing a picture of an older set of bbls marked Demi-block which appeared to have a joint much like a Mono-Block. I believe they were of either Pieper or Bayard "brand". This tended to cause me to wonder if the original meaning was a block built seperate from the tubes but of two pieces joined together, rather than from a single block, as in the "Mono". Then again maybe none of these are correct. Thanks for any input you may have on this.

2-piper...thats a good question...I don't understand either..I base my idea of demi-block on the Sauer and Pieper patents and those unappealing robust shotguns where Manufrance plugged 16ga tubes into a 12ga block...Have you seen those clunkers? If I bought a gun as chopper lump and a demi-block arrived, I would send it back...My first responce to reading that was...it's an error in translation and I know better...but how can I second guess FN...How can a demi-block also be chopper lump? what would be the point of splitting the block...I say we get a good look at sxsman's FN...look at the lumps to see if they are split, and look at the tubes 3 inches from the breach, to see if, in fact, it's a demi-block...send me a blank email with the subject as FN and I will send you those pages from the catalog...then we'll scrutinize his FN...hows that sound?

Demi-bloc Barrels - (called Chopper-lump barrels in British) - A method of joining the two separate tubes of a set of barrels where the right-hand half of the pair of lumps under the barrels are forged integrally with the right barrel and the left-hand half of the pair of lumps under the barrels are forged integrally with the left barrel. Chopper-lump barrels can be recognized by the fine joint-line running longitudinally down the center of each lump. This method of jointing barrels is the best because: 1. It is the strongest in relation to its weight, and 2. Because it allows the two barrels to be mounted closest to each other at the breech end, reducing problems regulating the points of aim of the two separate barrels.

http://www.hallowellco.com/abbrevia.htm#DA

To go along with what Randall said here are a couple of pictures that show what is meant by "chopper lump".

Robert,
My FN boxlock does not have the chopper lump barrels, Lumps not split.
How do I recognize a demi-bloc barrel?
Pete

The 1909-1915 [approx.] catalogs of Stevens , with their 365, 375, and 385 models show illustrations of what they considered demi-bloc. I am 3000 miles away from my catalogs, so can't show you.

OK.2-piper..now I understand...demi just means half...in either direction...Demi-block can be either...Either the block halved with the tubes or the lumps halved with the barrels. Both qualify as demi-block....but chopper lump means specifically one design of demi-block, and that is each halve of the lumps are machined or forged integrel with each barrel...

Robert; I think you have it there. Also unfortunately all makers do not always follow the same terminology & meanings change over time. A very good example of this is "Double Action Revolver". "Originally this meant a revolver which could be fired by either of two action types ie by either hand cocking or firing by a long trigger pull. What today is referred to as "Double Action Only" was then a single action, as it had only one mode of firing ie by a long trigger pull.
Chopperlump was I think primarily a British term, they were I think the only people to call an axe a chopper.

This is for all you guys who followed this thread any came away with nothing to bolster your files on FN SxS's

sxsman1...Here is FN's patented chopper lump system. The system shown in this patent is not obvious in the catalog drawing...it's an axial double dovetail system, with what looks like a curved drive wedge ...(I didn't understand 'til I got the two halves of the drawing together)...

Note the telltale 'joint line' or seam is still clearly visible in the finished product.

Thank you, gentlemen. Now I know.