doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com "New manufactured" Lefever project

Hi guys - not real sure how these forums work, and never having time to spend sitting in front of the computer (unless programming a new part...), we'll just have to see if this comes out OK! Since I'm the one who is supposedly (giggle) going to be making the actions, I thought I should come on and start the list of disclaimers, aggravations, annoyances and other "bad" stuff, before we get too far along here. But don't worry - I'll try to not get too carried away...

First, I'd like to thank those of you who have made positive comments on the Wesson #1 actions I have in production now. My biggest problem there - I'm backordered by many months. I'm now working on another batch of 30 receivers, and they are all spoken for!

My exposure to the shotgun world is extremely minimal. This is not due to any particular circumstances; just that I'm mostly a handgun and single-shot guy, and sometimes one needs to pick and choose his hobbies. So in that regard I am approaching this as primarily another machining/fitting/finishing job. As was previously detailed in this topic, my work would end with an in-the-white action, with the exception of the fact that internal parts that needed heat treating would be taken care of before it left my hands. This is how I do the Wesson actions - the outsides are left in the "annealed" state, but the internal lock and firing-pin related parts are all heat treated and ready to go. And incidentally, I do not do my own heat treating - I entrust that to a small aero- and auto-certified shop that has numerous computer-controlled furnaces. There's just no way I could approach their quality and consistency using a torch on a bench!

So maybe the first thing to keep in mind is that I have NEVER seen one of these guns! But heck - it's only a collection of metal parts, and that's where I make my living. Now there are a couple of people (Ken H. looms large here) who are working on educating me in this department - getting me a gun to look at and pieces to play with. And once that happens I will have a much better idea of where things are going. Then there are the umpteen-and-a-half variations, and which one (or ones) to go after, and who gets to make those decisions.

A really big question is just how closely to follow the originals. Making an exact copy is very nearly an impossibility. By exact here, I mean same materials, same methods of fabrication, etc. Do we duplicate the exact original screw threads, and run into the need for expensive custom taps? Do we forge parts or machine them from solid blocks? Is wire EDM work permitted, since it didn't exist back then? I guess my take on it is that I would utilize whatever manufacturing methods are needed to do the job - as good as, if not better. Changes from the originals are almost inevitable, but hopefully in very minor ways, and in ways that would enhance the functioning.

OK, this is getting a bit long for a first post, so I'll let it go and see what happpens!

Steve <><

That was pretty good Steve - considering you were talking to me on the phone while your were typing.

Steve Lamboy used to own the Lefever name ond assoactied legal stuff. Has anyone talked to him, or the new owner, about this?

Steve's Wesson actions are now more expensive than your new quoted price Ken. I sent him him a deposit last week and am eagerly awaiting my Henry action.

It looks like a lot fo folks here are wanting a good double for a low price. Every time I have read "for a fair price," the writer really meant a stupidly low price for them and VERY unfair to the slaves doing the work. The total cost to make this gun go "bang" will be quite a bit higher than the RBL or other guns out there. I am not saying this to be negative or anything. It just looks like a lot of tire-kickers thinking they will get an awesome gun for a fraction of what it costs to make.

THis sounds like it would be a very good gun and I hope to see it built. But this project has a much higher hill to climb than ICD, RBL, or whatever. To put the project in the hands of people who won't pay retail for a gun is a questionable move in my experience. As a project manager with experience managing people in many countries, I know the overwhelming majority of folks have no idea of what is involved to complete any project. So the same people who are not capable of accumalating enough money to buy a complete gun will be responsible for taking pieces and pulling it all together. It is not as easy as it seems.

THis is different than the Wesson actions in an important way. Steve sells bare actions and people know that is what they are. In a couple of years, will these be called "the new Lefever Shotgun" or something? I think they will, and that is a problem.

I was speaking with Darwin Hensley about some things today and he told me that your worst gun is the one that the most people will see. I was puzzled and asked asked him to explain that, and he said that worst gun will make the rounds because it will get sold, some one will buy it because of who built it, they will soon grow tired of it because it is not that great and sell it-the next guy will buy it beacuse of who built it but quickly grow tired of it and sell it-and the next guy......until lots of people have seen it. Look at what is currently happeneing with ICD "kits." The kits (Steve's worst guns) are what many judge the company by, as opposed to th egood guns he did make.

WIth this kit, you are still having to depend on folks who do not know what they are doing to make an actual gun out of it. From the way I understood this, the owner will be responsible fo rfinal fitting and testing. People in this coutry seem to think that is they can assmeble a swing set, then surely they can assemble something as simple a SxS shotgun! McIntosh put it best about wood work on guns-"anyone who has ever made a bird house thinks he can make a gun stock."

What I am getting at is that if this really happens, then a lot of kits will never get built, and many of those that are finished will not be anything most of us would own. These guns will make the rounds and get the publicicty and then people will say, "those Earle/Hurst guns are totally a POS and those two guys are crooks." Your plan puts your reputation in the hands of people of totally unknown quality and ability.

Searcy used to sell both double rifle "kits" and finished double rifle barreld actions in the white. Ask Butch about it. He told me it was a TOTAL disaster. What he had were people who were not capable of accumalting enough money to buy a double rifle trying to do it on the cheap. It was a train wreck. Even his idea of selling the barrelled actions, having the customer stock them and send them back to Butch for regulation was a total flop. He wound up spending so much time on the phone with people who were in over their head and trying to walk them through things that were beyond their capabilities. A good way to spend hours each day that did not produce any income.

THis is just food for thought. Again, I am in no way shape or form trying to rain on a parade here. I am just saying, as an international project manager, former business owner, current business owner, and gunmaker that all angles of this need to be investigated before laying your name on the line. The double gun world is a pretty small one and I would hate to see someone's reputation suffer and them lose money and valuable time due to the actions of others.

I would love to see this actually happen. I would love to have one of these things for myself.

Sun Tzu stated "The journey of 10,000 li begins with the first step." In another, but related context, the phrase is "One Day at a Time." I believe the glass is half full NOT half empty. Ken, Go for it! Best, Bill

Hi again - I shut down the shop for the night so I figured I'd try to improve my typing skills now. Many good insights, there, Marc - especially in regard to pricing and how that would all work, and who would be willing to pay for things. By way of comparison to the Wesson project, let me put in a couple of cents (and maybe sense) here.

I never entered into the Wesson with the idea of doing complete rifles. I CAN hang a barrel; I CAN put on wood; etc - but not economically enough, or anywhere near it, to have a complete gun as a product offering. It's just not my area of expertise, so I choose to stay out of it. Some of the idea here is for guys to be able to take in little bites, what might otherwise be a prohibitive expense. (Could always take out a loan, I suppose. That's little bites.) So a question arises - can a double be produced in multiple disparate steps, the way a lot of nice single-shot rifles have been built over the years?

I've seen some not-very-nice (to my eye) Wessons built up. But I'm not resposible for that, and I can't let thinking about it inhibit my enthusiasm for the next guy on the phone. I could market only beautiful complete rifles, at an exhorbitant price, to someone who did not know how to shoot, and I'd still get the blame for a bad rifle. Where does it end?

At some point people need to be responsible for their own actions and direction, so if you take a nice kit and make an ugly mess out of it - oh well, it's not my fault! But marketing psychology doesn't work that way, unfortunately. Everyone in the supply chain is put to blame when something goes wrong - witnesss the Ford/Firestone fiasco. What REALLY went on there was just stupid people, at many levels in many places.

To make a project foolproof, you have to ensure that no fools buy into it! Any good ideas on how to solve that one?

Steve <><

Steve,
What is the new price for the Wesson action? I am getting anxious for my first one to arrive. The check and FFL should be there tomorrow I would think. I noticed Mark reffered to it as his "Henry".....thats where I'm going with mine too. The .450 # 2 that Henry never built. Should be fun.
Steve

Steve,
I'm with you, don't worry about it. If you have the enthusiasm to make it and it makes you a living, go for it. If you built complete guns, you'd likely eventually be sued for some idiot blowing one up or shooting his foot. Pursue your dreams. This is another cool project and you are obviously well qualified to do it. I'm in awe. I'm qualified to turn a handle, so I have a good appreciation of the work involved, but I couldn't do this project.

Ken & Steve,
I think what you are planning is a terrific idea. I personally would love to own an original Lefever in mint condition, but I am a gun lover, not a collector. Buying a high condition original would be a mistake for me. Even if I was willing to pay the price, I would have to use it, and the condition would quickly degrade. I would also be limited in the shells I could fire in the rapidly depreciating "mint" shotgun.
A new Lefever made on CNC machinery out of modern steels would be a dreaam come true. With the toerances you will be able to hold, wood and barrels will be truly interchangeable. I am the customer service manager of a company that custom builds vaults, shielding doors, blast doors, attack proof doors and acoustical products for many alphabet agencies and the government as well as every radio, TV, or recording studio around the globe.
I deal with customers every day that have taken delivery of exactly what they specifed and realised they should have taken the experts advice, rather than designing what they thought they wanted. The costs of making their product perform as required are horrendous, and often it is financialy feasable to start over with the product that was recommended originally. From experience, keep it simple. Decide what guage, features and barrel length the majority of potential customers want and stick with your decisions. You may lose a few sales, but the people that want all the inherent qualities of an American Classic made with modern materials will step up to the plate. Some people will say "I would have bought one if such and such was available". But a great many of those people would say thay no matter what you had offered. I would love to be a part of a business venture like this, but I am realistic. The gun business is no place for a gun addict. I had a gunshop for many years, but my profits ended up in my gun safes. I am sure I will finance the purchase of one of these modern Lefevers by selling off some of the profits from 20 years ago. Best of luck to you both. I'll be waiting for news that production has begun.

Bill

Steve-I wish you were in the shop working on the actions (especiallu mine!!!) instead of typing! But since you aren't, glad you chimed in.

Most of my friends are also busienss owners. Any time one of us is thinking about branching out, redirecting focus, or whatever, then we usually bounce ideas off of each other. It is much easier to work out problems when you are in the theoretical, as opposed to operational, phase. I want to be sure every one took me at total face value before. i was just throwing out some ideas to be sure the right heads had thought about them.

THis is also why I pointed out the providing a bare Wesson action is much different than providing a shotgun kit. The skill needed to make a rifle out of the Wesson is much less and different than that required for assembling a double shotgun kit.

I would suggest having a couple of stock sets made up to function test the guns. The kits would be assembled and fit in your shop, then screw the stocks on and shoot for function. Then sell the tested barrelled actions.

I am basing what I have said on personal experience, and from talking to others. An important one of "the others" is Butch Searcy who did the exact same kit program talked about here.

You can import AYA barreled actions in the white. Has anyone priced these? Has anyone looked into other Spanish makers who would import in-the-white sidelock shotguns? What about the Italians? I know some of them will import barreled actions. How much does this cost and what is involved? What about Steve Lamboy-has anyone tried to talk to him to see what went right and what went wrong? His inital busienss model had him selling in-the-white barreled actions. I don't know if he ever was able to do so,excluding the "bag-o'-parts" you can buy from Galazan's. Plus it would be a sound legal move to get the low down on what he controls of Lefever. With any new business move, you must research the competition.

I will close by restating what I said in the first post-I hope this plan really does come through. I would love to buy one of the 20 ga. kits, no matter how rough they are. I am in no way, shape, or form trying to be negative or rain on a parade. I am just doing exactly what my friends and I do when doing anything new in one of our busiensses. I sincerely hope that everyone takes me at face value and understands that asking these questions and making these statements is just appropriate due diligance. Going through these exercises is just normal busienss practice. If I did not care about the people or outcome, I would have kept my mouth shut.

I would think that such a project to be successful should look at the kit cobra and the supporting websites to as a model for success.

One company sells the kit, http://www.factoryfive.com/index.html, and then there are the supporting sites such as this one http://www.ffcobra.com/ that supports itself by providing forums and support for those building and an avenue for tradesman to sell products and skills to complete the cars.

This way those learn what to expect prior to beginning the project from those before them. They have support and encouragement along the way and do not need to re invent the wheel when they run into problems.