doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com 2 1/2" vs 2 3/4 " chambers

I think we are talking apples and oranges here.
I belong to both groups. I have a Beretta O/U to shoot clays with off the shelf $5/box of 25 (on sale) target loads.
I collect antiques guns where the value is decreased if they have been "messed with" such as having been rechambered. I shoot those guns with either RST shells at about $10/box of 25 or reloaded RST shells which cost about $4.50 to reload (not counting my labor).
Yes, the modern shooters vastly outnumber the serious collectors. However, they, like me, are not necessarily mutally exclusive.
Several days hunting with RCC with a 2 5/8 inch Lefever using RST shells cost less than the hamburgers I had for lunch. I certainly don't believe that rechambering the A grade Lefever I was using would add to it's value, rather I feel that it would seriously lower its value. The number of people interested in buying a gun like that for what it is worth probably numbers in the hundreds, while the numbers buying over/under modern chambered Berettas and the like number in the millions.

I don't believe that anyone has suggested that lengthening chambers increases the value of guns (though it may if the gun is reproofed and no doubt has when undetected). The only question is whether, assuming that two guns are identical in all respects, maker, age, condition, gauge etc., except that one is a 2-1/2 inch gun and the other is 2-3/4, will they sell as easily and for the same price; i.e., be as marketable? If you were in the market for, say, a 1935 Purdey game gun, rose and scroll engraving, in original, not "messed with" condition, and were willing to pay tens of thousands of dollars for it, would you rather have it with 2-1/2" or 2-3/4" chambers?

Presented to that segment of the market that would be potential Purdey buyers, I don't think the buyers would be moved one way or the other by the chamber length. Nor do I believe the sellers would be bullish on the price of one chamber length over the other.

A ''messed with'' '35 Purdey chambered for 2.75-inch loads will still have the user searching for loads that are not going to be found in most U.S. stores. So, makes no difference.

In the types of guns we are generally speaking of here, upper crust British guns, those with 2�" chambers vs those with 2 3/4 chambers will not usually be "Otherwise Identical". The 2�" guns will be lightweight Game Guns, while the 2 3/4" ones will be heavier wt pigeon, trap or wildfowl guns. Which of these a man would pay the premium for would depend more on the type he was seeking, not on the actual chamber length. If he were seeking a light fast handling grouse gun for instance he would not pay a premium for a heavy gun in order to get the 2 3/4" chambers. He might just pay a premium to get a slick little 2" chambered gun.

Why do you ask?

1. We are not talking only about upper crust English guns. I think that we are talking about fine guns; i. e., spending a lot of money on guns. 2. That said, i don't think that we are talking about whether spending money on guns is a good investment, as in making money. I think that what we are talking about is whether it is foolish to pay a lot of money for 2 1/2 inch guns and if there is a discount on the eventual sale of such guns, assuming that you are not going to be buried with them. 3. While there are various factors that play into the value of 21/2 inch guns, such as availability and cost of shells, that is not the focus of this discussion, nor are the aesthetics, history, or wonderfulness of 2 1/2 inch guns. 4. By the way, Guns that are chambered for normal, modern 2 3/4 inch shells are not necessarily heavy or slow. 5. If guns chambered for 2 1/2 inch shells are so wonderful, how come nobody has been building them for the past 40 or 50 years? I would love to know what proportion 2 1/2 inch guns constitute of fine gun production. Maybe 5 percent of English gun production (much of which is really produced elsewhere) and 0 percent of other ffine gun production.Possibly it has to do with marketability. 6. Does nobody here check out auction prices? Dealers' asking prices? 6.If speedy game guns are so swell, how come nobody wants 26 inch ( or less) barreled guns any more? It wasn't so long ago (OK, maybe 35 or so years ago) that I unloaded a fairly high grade Parker because it had 30 inch barrels). 7. That's it. I quit on this string. Now if somebody would like to start a string on the value and marketability of O/Us vs. SSs....

Fascinating conversation

I agree the segment of the market that desires old doubleguns is a thin one and maybe aging. That said I think the negative effect of decling size and potential interest is on the low end of the doublegun market and not on the high end.

I believe that higher quality guns are just that and will hold their value. Value in high end guns is not an instant thing and in the past and still today you cannot expect a quick sale at a top price. Quick sales are usually at a discount (Loss).

The field grade market for old doubles is not one I would recommend unless one is searching for a shooter to beat about. They are not investments. For that matter I do not see guns as an investments at all. Stick to mutual funds or land to increase you finances. That said you will lose more on a field grade than high grade. Remember money on guns is usually made on the purchase, not the sale.

Reference 2.5 inch chambers and their effect on value. Yes they are harder to sell than a 2.75 inch gun all other things being equal. That said the people who buy quality old doubleguns are not much put off by one chamber length than the other. As others have put it before me on this thread they are not a magnificantly large group.

Before one plunges headfirst into a discussion of whether a "fine gun" is worth more when chambered at 2 1/2" vs 2 3/4", it would contribute more to an intelligent discussion if the poster were to recognize that the question does not begin and end only with chamber length. Here's why:

Let's assume that the fine Purdey in question was made relatively recently, say during the 1990's. Made for a UK buyer, chambered at 2 3/4", and proofed at the then-CIP standard of 850 bars. Well, if someone on this side of the pond were to buy that gun used, those 2 3/4" chambers and modern proof would not mean that the new American buyer could then go out and start feeding that gun standard American factory ammo--which is, I think following HOS' logic, the reason such a gun should be more valuable than a 2 1/2" gun. Per the Birmingham Proofhouse, service pressure for an 850 bar proof gun works out to a bit less than 10,800 psi, as we measure pressure in this country. The SAAMI standard for 12ga service pressure on American factory ammo is 11,500 psi--which means that the new American owner of that relatively new and modern proof Purdey with 2 3/4" chambers wouldn't be gaining anything based only on chamber length, because American factory ammo would still be too hot for the gun in question.

If an American buyer had gone to Purdey in the 90's and asked them to build him a game gun in which he intended to shoot 2 3/4" American factory loads, they would have built that gun as a 1200 bar "magnum proof"--and, as such, it would have been heavier than the same gun built standard proof, even if both had 2 3/4" chambers. So chamber length in and of itself, even if we're talking about modern British best guns, isn't where the story starts and ends. Both Major Burrard and Gough Thomas stated that it was perfectly fine to shoot British "standard" 2 3/4" shells in guns with 2 1/2" chambers. The problem came when people wanted to shoot American "standard" 2 3/4" shells in 2 1/2" chambers--or, for that matter, in "standard proof" British guns with 2 3/4" chambers.

So we reach the conclusion that the only advantage 2 3/4" chambers have in a fine British gun is if the gun is also given what was previously a 1200 bar "magnum proof" (now called a superior proof)--if the buyer's desire is to shoot American 2 3/4" shells in the gun. Otherwise, longer chambers not only provide no advantage over a 2 1/2" gun, but may--if the owner doesn't know what he's doing--lead him to expose the gun to service pressures higher than those for which it was designed.

Well said, Larry. Your comments are exactly on target for this well worn subject.