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The late Mr. McIntosh--who was, in general, a fan of classic American doubles--found a number of things to criticize about Elsies. See the chapter in his "Gun Review Book". Not much question that the Brits did sidelocks better. Imitation is proof of flattery, and the Spanish have chosen to imitate the British designs rather than the Elsie. Matter of fact, no one has chosen to imitate Elsie.

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Originally Posted By: PeteM
By 1890 English gun production was on the skids.
Pete


Could you kindly validate this statement please Pete?

Thanks

Tim

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Diggory has a very dry sense of humor and is pulling yall's collective leg. He shoots a Model 21 in Africa and loves it. I have proof.

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Originally Posted By: trw999
Originally Posted By: PeteM
By 1890 English gun production was on the skids.

Could you kindly validate this statement please Pete?


The only thing better than a well stocked library is the ability to remember what you read:

RE: the British Arms industry
The Birmingham Gun Trade
by David Williams
published 2004
isbn 0-7524-3237-0
page 140

Gun exports to America
1882 $1,169,000
1890 $349,000
1905 $20,000

RE: Belgian reform of child labor
Pieter Daens (in Dutch)
by Louis Paul Boon
published 1974

Daens, a movie based on the book in French & Dutch 1992

RE: The McKinley Tariff
I have the Congressional record sitting here.

RE: Congressional hearing regarding the tariff Google

Pete

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You don't think that, maybe, the tariff of 1890 had something to do with those numbers? English gun production was on the skids in 1905 because America had imposed that protective tariff to allow for our own fledgling industry to survive. The domestic gunmaking industry was facing competition in one part of the market (the high-end) from highly-evolved English guns, and on the other end of the market (guess which one?) from Belgum. What we largely ended up with was an amalgam of English design (the A&D action had lost patent protection in 1894) and American production techniques.

Let's see now, we're comparing guns made in a long-established master/apprentice system to mass-produced guns(albeit, with some level of hand-work in the early years). American guns are hell-for-strong, because they had to be. Is that a measure of refinement?

Last edited by Lloyd3; 04/14/13 07:06 PM.
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The McKinley Tariff became law on October 1, 1890. At that point the English trade had already declined by $820,000 since 1882.

Pete

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Affirmative action is obviously not a new idea.

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Originally Posted By: JDW
Any of the Syracuse L.C. Smiths from Quality 4 to Quality 7 were as good if not better than any English gun built.

And Ted you are wrong, these guns were built on 3 different frame weights. The medium weight 12 ga. could be made as low as 7 1/2 lbs with 30" barrels.
The Quality 7 was $450.00 in 1888.


Few 1890 vintage LC Smiths were built at 7 1/2 pounds-if you can, show me one. Bigger was better in that era, and the guns show it. While you are at it, find one of that vintage that isn't cracked behind the lockplates.

The only people I know who claim an LC Smith is as good or better than an English gun are those who are unfamiliar with a Lefever. I'd still take a typical English gamekeepers boxlock from the same period over either of those.

Best,
Ted

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Re: Sir Dig's sense of humor; whilst recognizing the inherent challenge of appearing humble when addressing one’s Colonial inferiors, it might be prudent for an English iron monger to be slightly less condescending toward potential purchasers of his wares.


Good is as good does. Please review the outcome of the 1901 Anglo-American match
https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=185YOyQl7GIB9OYLs9Hr3tnMLHqs4rjEdR4j_E9l4HLw

Marshall and Merrill gave up their Cashmores and choose Parkers, as did Le Roy and Heikes who used Remington doubles at the 1901 GAH at Live Birds as Remington professionals. Le Roy had been a Remington representative since 1897. Parmelee used a Parker at the 1900 GAH, but had previously also been a Remington professional.
Guns used: Capt. Thos. Marshall - Parker, R. O. Heikes - Parker, W.R. Crosby - Smith., C. W. Budd – Parker, J. S. Fanning - Smith, J.A.R. Elliott - Winchester Repeater, Fred. Gilbert – Parker, F. S. Parmelee - Parker, C. M. Powers - Parker, Edward Banks - Winchester Repeater, E.H. Tripp - Parker, Richard Merrill - Parker, and B. Le Roy - Parker.

After the team defeated the British best, W.R. Crosby (Smith) beat the Scottish champion shot, Faulds, at Glasgow, Scotland. Each shot at 100 clay pigeons from ground traps and 50 pigeons from tower traps. Crosby scored 139 to Faulds’ 134.



Last edited by Drew Hause; 04/14/13 07:48 PM.
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Dr. Drew: I'm a great fan of your work, but we're comparing competition guns (essentially, pigeon guns) to game guns here. Apples and oranges. There is a difference between a 6 1/2 pound gun and an 8-pound gun, and you darn-well know it.

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