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So Joe, Parkers and Lefevers. What, no Browning Superposed? Browning Supers, although made in Belgium were clearly invented by an American mind and are high on the totem pole for me. My favorite hunting gun is a Browning 20 gauge. I just love that gun. I'm pretty fond of Model 21's too......seems like people either love them or hate them. I'm one of those who is a fan. Some day I want to try out a Fox 16 or 20. Take care, and don't let yourself get too heated over this stuff. England and the U.S. both produced some pretty darn nice guns in my opinion.


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Actually, Buzz, I'm having a heck of a lot of fun with this nonsensical topic and a whole lot of what I've written is very much tongue in cheek. I do chuckle whenever I think of a properly dressed English gentleman with his neatly pressed breeks, tie and oiled coat participating in one of our Texas quail hunts--sun blazing down with a thirty mile an hour wind, sweat pouring down his face, and struggling through a thorn covered ten acre plum thicket looking for a dog locked on point and hoping not to step on a six foot rattler. smile smile. What a picture that would be! Or stratling a barbed wire fence just as the top wire let loose.....oh, what a hoot!

And Buzz, if The Lord had'a intended us to shoot O/U guns he'd ah oriented our eyes in the same manner.......


It ain't whether you hit a bird that matters, it's the fun you have even if you don't.
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I hear ya Joe. Not so convinced re the O/U thing though. Let's just hope we have some quail to hunt next year!! We need rain BAD!! Amarillo Mike and I were talking about doing a Commanche rain dance sometime soon. Want to join us? Any help would be appreciated. ;-)


Socialism is almost the worst.
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Mr. Wood's got the right idea here. Much ado about nothing.

BTW, If you folks do that dance and it works, send some of that rain our way. It looked like the Sudan on Colorado's eastern plains last Fall. Darn few birds and the antelope could be seen for miles just from the dust cloud.

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Everyone has said their piece, or at least calmed down, so it might be a good time to post this one. The more things change, the more they stay the same smile

Jan. 2 1897
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1897/VOL_28_NO_15/SL2815017.pdf
Charles Grimm defeats Doc Carver in Chicago for the “Cast Iron Metal”
Grimm used a 12-bore L. C. Smith gun, 7 3/4 pounds, 3 3/4 drams Schultze, 1 1/4 ounce No. 7 shot, in U. M. C. Trap shell.
Carver used a 12-bore Cashmore gun, 8 pounds weight, 4 drams of Carver powder, 1 1/4 No. 7 shot, in U. M. C. Trap shells.
(These were some boomers!)

In response to a letter from Carver re: J. “147” L. Winston, “The Wizard of the West”, St. Louis representing Austin Powder Co. Jan. 30 1897
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1897/VOL_28_NO_19/SL2819018.pdf
Dr. W. F. Carver wrote a funny letter in a Chicago journal last week, in which he states that Winston could not kill good birds because he had a cheap American machine made gun, and if "147" had used the same kind of imported gun that he did the matches would have been closer. Will Dr. W. F. Carver kindly explain why Charles Grimm, using the same kind of machine made gun as Winston did, managed to kill 98 out of 100 live birds and take the "Cast Iron Medal" away from him?
In this match Grimm used the American machine made L. C. Smith gun, while Carver used an imported gun that he advertises free when he gets a chance. Now if Carver’s gun is so much better than Grimm’s why did he not kill more birds? or was it because the Cashless (Carver used a Cashmore) gun was only good on hard, fast zig-zig screamers, and not adapted for soft easy duffer birds? The “Evil Spirit” had better think again.

Last edited by Drew Hause; 04/16/13 06:40 PM.
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I seem to have provided a topic for discussion! Very entertaining (smirked the condescending Brit from behind his Daily Telegraph, before putting on his bowler hat to take the tube to the City).

See you all at the Southern where I expect to receive the spanking I deserve smile


On a serious note - I will never say things I do not believe true (or not say things) in order to sell a gun to anyone. I don't think it would be appreciated if I did. Agreeing with my observations or liking a gun I have and deciding to buy it should not be related. If they are, I'll take the hit.

BTW 'Inferior' does not mean you are not allowed to like it. I do most of my shooting with a gun which is objectively inferior to the majority that I have in the gun room. Because I like it. I still recognise that it is not as sophisticated or of the equivalent quality of a typical Purdey or Grant.

Last edited by Small Bore; 04/17/13 02:32 AM.
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That was a nice Grant sidelever they sold at Holts last sale Dig. I put in my max bid but it went for quite a lot more frown best, Mike

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Originally Posted By: Rookhawk


American guns have value because of originality and rarity. Brit guns have value because of current replacement cost and restored condition. (A general oversimplification)



I'd add that American guns, just like Brit (or European) guns also have value because of name and condition. Example: Yesterday I looked at Mark Beasland's inventory. Mark had a Parker Trojan 20ga, decent original condition. Probably the best part about it was that it had dimensions many would find quite shootable. Not a whole ton of drop. For essentially the same price, he had a Joseph Defourney 20ga BLE, much better condition, scalloped back, 100% engraving, about as nice as I've seen on a boxlock. Sideclips, Greener crossbolt. It went home with me. The price on the Trojan was reasonable given the market, but 20ga Trojans aren't rare. Wouldn't have been worth nearly that much if it hadn't said Parker. Absolutely no question it's a much cruder gun than the Defourney--which, if it had had a decent English name, probably would have been worth about twice as much.

As for the chaps from across the pond in their breeks compared to TX quail hunters . . . I've done both. Last two Decembers in Scotland, we had one day standing there in our nice breeks, rain and sleet coming at us horizontally. Birds pouring over our heads, made more challenging by the wind, the fact it was hard to see, and fingers were cold enough to have trouble working safeties. Those TX boys would likely wish they were back home.

Last edited by L. Brown; 04/17/13 08:53 AM.
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Interesting statement by Thomas Hunter here; scroll down to p. 885. Discussing efforts to export guns to S. American, England and Belgium

"We never have been able to ship them to England or Scotland or Belgium."

Report on Duties on Metals and Manufactures of Metals
By United States Congress. Senate. Committee on Finance, 1912
Testimony regarding the Payne-Aldrich and Dingley Tariff Bills
http://books.google.com/books?id=QDkvAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA879&dq
STATEMENT OF MR. THOMAS HUNTER, OF FULTON, N. Y., REPRESENTING THE HUNTER ARMS CO. AND OTHERS
The Chairman: Will you state the companies you represent, Mr. Hunter?
Mr. Hunter. The Hunter Arms Co., the Baker Gun & Forging Co., Parker Bros. Gun Co., Hopkins & Allen Arms Co., A. H. Fox Gun Co., Lefever Arms Co., H. & D. Folsom Arms Co., Ithaca Gun Co., N. R. Davis & Sons, and Harrington & Richardson Arms Co.

Did the British retaliate with a tariff, or was it a lack of interest in "inferior" U.S. products?

Last edited by Drew Hause; 04/17/13 10:08 AM.
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Ah, Larry, we Texas boys would'a been perfectly at home. Only the Brits and their lookalikes would have stood out there like that. My goodness, even my coon hound gets under the house when it's cold 'n wet. Standard time honored hunters position in weather like that is sitting in our pickup trucks with the gun sticking out of the open window and the engine running. If it wuz good nuff fer Davy Crockett it's shore good nuff fer us. (And I've heard from a good source he had half the Mexican army in the back of his truck!)


It ain't whether you hit a bird that matters, it's the fun you have even if you don't.
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