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Joined: Mar 2009
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Originally Posted By: muchatrucha
I am considering purchasing a used 12 gauge sidelock in the $4k to $6k range preferably with 29"-30" barrels.I intend to use in the field, at vintage events and informal clay shooting. It would be nice if it had "decent" engraving and wood.
After an extensive search of online resources and advertisements, it appears that I might purchase either an old Birmingham (non-London) gun or a lightly used AyA or Arrieta Spanish entry-level gun. Both options would suffice.
I have to consider functionality and resale value at some point. I can't afford to buy high and sell low.
Assuming I can find one of each with similar configurations, which would you choose and most importantly WHY?


Focusing on the original question; while the LC Smith is an option as an American SLE, like other varieties of Brit, Belgian, German, and Spanish SLEs, it is an acquired taste. I have owned good LC Smith's in the past to include a pre-13 20ga 5E. They are good guns. That said to get to the higher grade LCs it can get expensive fast and given the original poster's price range of $4-6k, it would be difficult to achieve that.

Further the original poster seems to state he is looking primarily to Birmingham and Spanish SLEs. The challenge in his objective is a desire to sustain resale value. The reality has been stated on this website before; "you make the money on the purchase price." Experience has taught me that unless something unusual happens I have made profits on guns only when I brought them below and not at their actual value. I have not seen gun values truly grow past inflation or even necessarily stay even with inflation.

Because resale is important to the buyer in this case (as a significant factor) In terms of configurations and what is important as a rule of thumb stay with mainstream features. Southgate/Baker Ejectors (because they are standard have fewer issues and are widely accepted) Stay with Double triggers (while many types of single triggers are good, on old guns they can be a nightmare and many buyers in the future will not look at your gun with single triggers) Stay away from sleeved barrels (because while many of us like them and do not mind them a bit, I would say the majority do not and selling a sleeved gun is harder than a non-sleeved gun). Make sure the barrels are of a more than acceptable thickness (thin tubes or borderline tubes are all over the place out there) Weight toward Holland and Holland style locks (other types are good, but the H&H style has great acceptance and thus easier resale). Lastly and most importantly, weight the price against the actual value (if resale in the near future -- I define near in this case as next five years -- then you must find a bargain price gun from a motivated seller)

Now that I have said all that, I can say I have not followed the criteria above because my main criteria over the years has been when I mount the gun does it feel right. Does it fit me in that it points to where I am looking? My second criteria is it mechanically sound gun. Lastly does it look good to me. If it meets those three criteria and it meets my final "can I afford it" criteria I buy. I do not buy to speculate, I buy to shoot and more than one member of this website has benefited from a discounted price from me so I can go do it again.


Michael Dittamo
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Colonel: You're buying with your head, but also with your heart. I like that! I tend to do it too. Like you, I don't mind paying (a little bit) for my pleasure.

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Amen, Colonel......I buy a gun almost exactly as you do. Sometimes I find a "bargain" but more often than not by the time I've made them "perfect" I've got more in them than I could possibly hope to recover. So, on purchase I assume I'm 30% underwater on day one and that amount is what I relegate to my "fun fund". Having few other expensive vices this is one I allow myself without any remorse. Actually, over time I believe many of my purchases actually will make an heir of mine a tidy sum, though at that point I really won't give a damn.


When an old man dies a library burns to the ground. (Old African proverb)
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Originally Posted By: old colonel
Originally Posted By: muchatrucha
I am considering purchasing a used 12 gauge sidelock in the $4k to $6k range preferably with 29"-30" barrels.I intend to use in the field, at vintage events and informal clay shooting. It would be nice if it had "decent" engraving and wood.
After an extensive search of online resources and advertisements, it appears that I might purchase either an old Birmingham (non-London) gun or a lightly used AyA or Arrieta Spanish entry-level gun. Both options would suffice.
I have to consider functionality and resale value at some point. I can't afford to buy high and sell low.
Assuming I can find one of each with similar configurations, which would you choose and most importantly WHY?


Focusing on the original question; while the LC Smith is an option as an American SLE, like other varieties of Brit, Belgian, German, and Spanish SLEs, it is an acquired taste. I have owned good LC Smith's in the past to include a pre-13 20ga 5E. They are good guns. That said to get to the higher grade LCs it can get expensive fast and given the original poster's price range of $4-6k, it would be difficult to achieve that.

Further the original poster seems to state he is looking primarily to Birmingham and Spanish SLEs. The challenge in his objective is a desire to sustain resale value. The reality has been stated on this website before; "you make the money on the purchase price." Experience has taught me that unless something unusual happens I have made profits on guns only when I brought them below and not at their actual value. I have not seen gun values truly grow past inflation or even necessarily stay even with inflation.

Because resale is important to the buyer in this case (as a significant factor) In terms of configurations and what is important as a rule of thumb stay with mainstream features. Southgate/Baker Ejectors (because they are standard have fewer issues and are widely accepted) Stay with Double triggers (while many types of single triggers are good, on old guns they can be a nightmare and many buyers in the future will not look at your gun with single triggers) Stay away from sleeved barrels (because while many of us like them and do not mind them a bit, I would say the majority do not and selling a sleeved gun is harder than a non-sleeved gun). Make sure the barrels are of a more than acceptable thickness (thin tubes or borderline tubes are all over the place out there) Weight toward Holland and Holland style locks (other types are good, but the H&H style has great acceptance and thus easier resale). Lastly and most importantly, weight the price against the actual value (if resale in the near future -- I define near in this case as next five years -- then you must find a bargain price gun from a motivated seller)

Now that I have said all that, I can say I have not followed the criteria above because my main criteria over the years has been when I mount the gun does it feel right. Does it fit me in that it points to where I am looking? My second criteria is it mechanically sound gun. Lastly does it look good to me. If it meets those three criteria and it meets my final "can I afford it" criteria I buy. I do not buy to speculate, I buy to shoot and more than one member of this website has benefited from a discounted price from me so I can go do it again.
Well said indeed Sir-- I seem to recall in reading the late Dr. Charles Norris's book- that he first started with LC Smiths, then later, as his "Old Main Line- Ob-Gyn" practice flourished and he was more "in the chips" he bought Purdey's. I treasure my 4 LC Smiths, they were made by a company that grew from the great "Robber Baron" capitalism and Industrial Age spirit (as did Ithaca, Parker, and possibly Baker and LeFever and Fox as well) that made America once the great gunmaking center of the free market world-- Any fine sidelock, no matter if it should be in bar action or back action design, with or without intercepting sears, is a graceful shotgun- if the stock lines, barrel length and all else that pleases the eyes- to me a fine sidelock is like an elegant woman-- much as Duke Ellington may have had in mind when he composed "Sophisticated Lady"-- Boxlocks, whether AAHE Parkers or Custom Shop Model 21 Winchesters- are more like the Belgian draft horses used to pull beer wagons- functional and solid- built for the long haul, but as elegant as Eleanor Roosevelt in a bikini--


"The field is the touchstone of the man"..
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Muchatrucha,

I realize I'm a bit off of your criteria, but what about a Miroku Sidelock? I recently purchased the below Miroku Model FE Sidelock.

The pro's are: Japanese construction is solid and reliable. They may not think out of the box too much, but the Japanese culture is to do one thing very, very well. They generally copy proven designs - like the Spanish have done, but the Japanese do not suffer from quality problems. Since Japanese guns are not as appreciated in the U.S. as Amerian, English, and European guns, a nice gun can be obtained for a good price.

The biggest con is of course resale. Since Japanese guns are not so appreciated, resale is still not great - but in time that may change.

Again, I realize you've put some thought into your search and question, so I hope I'm not too out of line.



Sincerely,
Patrick
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Thanks Old Colonel for actually understanding my initial post, much appreciated.
I'm looking for a sidelock because I don't own one. Yes, price is an issue since I'm a working stiff. I've lost money on every gun I've sold. Sometimes a significant amount. I can chalk some of this up to the learning curve.
But now I'd like to follow another course, and at least not lose too much. I understand that purchasing a quality SxS is not a wise investment strategy. I buy them because I like to shoot targets and birds with them. The same reason I fish with cane rods. I just want to make a wise choice. I too buy emotionally and surround myself with facts to support the decision I already made. So if I may repeat, I'm looking for a quality sidelock within a price range that has a reasonable chance of not devaluing too much. Something with nice engraving and wood, with 29-30 inch barrels and double triggers. No more project guns. I'll keep looking and the search IS part of the fun.


The only constant in life is change.
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Originally Posted By: Gnomon
Mike Yardley writes, in my opinion, very good gun reviews. He has reviewed a number of AyAs:

http://www.thefield.co.uk/search?q=Yardley+AyA&submit=

and it might be interesting to those thinking of getting an AyA to look at these reviews.

Hope this helps.


If your views on AyA's are as informed and intelligent as your views that president Obama was no threat to individual gun ownership rights, I'd be afraid to be in the same county as an AyA. Seriously!


A true sign of mental illness is any gun owner who would vote for an Anti-Gunner like Joe Biden.

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[quote=muchatrucha]Yes, price is an issue since I'm a working stiff. I've lost money on every gun I've sold. Sometimes a significant amount. I can chalk some of this up to the learning curve. But now I'd like to follow another course, and at least not lose too much. I understand that purchasing a quality SxS is not a wise investment strategy. /quote]

Except for an exceptional few, guns are not a wise investment strategy.

Books can be written reference the loss of money on gun trading; and I have done it alot. This maybe a small comfort, but I have come to look at the loss on a sale as the rent for owning it it. The accepatability of the loss is measured in relation to how much I enjoyed it (purely subjective) and how badly I want the next thing I am getting (again subjective). In selling guns recently I took a bath (more than $1.5k), I compare it to the $3,000 I will spend on my son's college graduation weekend from William & Mary on plane tickets and hotels and it does not seem as much. Lord knows I got more pleasure out of the six guns than I will the graduation weekend, and the pleasure I have already gotten just beginning to learn about double rifles and reloading for them is worth the $1.5k rent. That does not include the pleasure of shooting them.

Approaching the potential loss as rent on the purchasing will help you focus on the gun itself, the feel of it, the use of it. I realize there are collectors who enjoy the pleasure of having nice or unusual stuff and I have my retriever club pins, other dog club pins, and quail plantation pins addiction; but on guns I try to keep a utility factor in what I buy and what I hold onto. Utility as a consideration helps keep me from extremes.

I once was building a 16ga collection in which I was trying to purchase one of each type of action and samples of all the major makers in the US and some English. I woke up one day and realized there was only one or two guns that ever left my safe for other than show and tell. I was being weighted down by all the stuff while not getting enough pleasure back for the cost of the pile. Most of the stuff was owned just to have one and not something I wanted to shoot. All was a big mistake. We go through cycles in our lives and most of us will learn through our own mistakes instead of those of others.

The hunt for the right gun is an adventure and pleasure in itself. It should include learning as much as possible about the gun, its mechanics, and its history. It should include a great deal of internet exploring to look at comparable guns (note the prices on the internet are often the asking and not what they sell or sold for). The hunt will help you learn what to value so the rent is well spent.

When going to buy the SLE do not buy it online without a physical inspection. Feel is personal and when spending big dollars the price of a mistake is too high. Going to a major event (gun show, vintage shoot) is a good technique, but you have to go with clear purpose, specifications, and limits. The most important limit is that if the deal is not the exact right one, you leave with no gun at all. The greatest skill to master in gun buying is the ability to pass on a purchase.


Michael Dittamo
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Originally Posted By: patrickwall
Muchatrucha,


The biggest con is of course resale.


The biggest con, in my opinion, is availability. They are very rare state-side. You'd be better off hunting down a Browning BSS sidelock.

Which would be fit the criteria perefectly.

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Adam,

You may have a point. Since I'm in Japan, i'm not too aware of the availability in the US. But, I think Miroku's (any Japanese) are very solid and reliable guns at a disproportionately low price when compared with US, English, and European guns.


Sincerely,
Patrick
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