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Joined: Jan 2002
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Originally Posted By: L. Brown
Ted, try measuring a 12ga, center of one bore at the muzzle to center of the other bore. I think you'll find pretty close to 1" separation.


I know that, Larry. I was just having some semantic fun with it.

Best,
Ted

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Having examined hundreds, if not thousands of doubles, it is obvious that barrels converge. It is also obvious that convergence is not as critical as in rifles, and this can be concluded by the fact that regardless of barrel legth or gauge the barrels touch at the muzzle. In fact you can tell a chopped double by the lack of muzzle to muzzle contact.

As long as the patterns hit to the same point of aim at the required distance there is no need to work out the trigonometry of the thing.

More serious fault in barrel alignment is the vertical deviation as this can be a cause of regular and puzzling misses.

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My Ca 1890 32" bbl'd 10lb 10ga Lefever undoubtedly has the widest set muzzles of any shotgun I have ever owned. Per a nice set of Starrett dial calipers measuring the closest point between the bores & then their widest point & striking an average they have a Cl/CL spacing of .915". As the OD's of the muzzles measure an even .900" that means they actually have an .015" spacing between the barrels. As they are still a full 32" long & there is no other indication I purely doubt they have been cut. They are however still a good bit shy of 1" spacing & they "Don't Touch". I didn't check the breech CL's but it is a large frame gun & they are rather wide.


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For a British 12ga the following would be typical,Firing Pin centres 1 &1/8th apart (1.125") Muzzle diameters .800" with tubes touching.Thus centres would be .800" Total convergence rate of .011" - .012" per inch of barrel length. Bore Centre lines will intersect at 6-7' from muzzle. Upon discharge gun will undergo degree of torque rotation in direction of discharging bbl , ie Right pulls right, left pulls left. Impact will centre on line of sight along rib.
Actual pattern centre could not be identified accurately enough to express any convergence.
The gunmakers goal would be to have both patterns superposed over each other at 40 yds. The very theoretical incompleted convergence of 4/10ths of an inch at 20 yds would be impossible to measure


Hugh Lomas,
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Extremely Well Said Mr Lomas. That
Quote:
Upon discharge gun will undergo degree of torque rotation in direction of discharging bbl, ie Right pulls right, left pulls left.
seems to be what so many are not grasping. Thus the two bbls do not both hit point of aim at 40yds because that is where they are Both statically pointed prior to discharge, but that is where they are individually pointed as the shot exits muzzle.


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Saying all muzzles are together is a generalization.

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Yep. I was surprised when my new 16 ga. RBL was delivered a few years ago with about 1/8" separation between the muzzles. I checked with CSMC, they confirmed this is per the design. Approximately 27/32" between bore centers at the muzzle and 35/32" at the breech. Several patterns shot at 30 yds. hit where they should, so I don't think about it any more.

Jay

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This is my first post on the forum, so I might as well jump into a subject that has given me fits. I am a turkey hunter and live in Alabama where we have a generous spring season limit and lots of turkeys. I've always loved a good sxs, but had never used one for turkey hunting except for one season back in my youth.

I have been thinking for some time that the perfect turkey gun would be a sxs 20 gauge shooting the heavy tungsten shot. With one open barrel for close shots, and one tight barrel for longer shots, every possible shot should be covered. I also needed to be able to mount some type of sight on the gun. My eyes are too bad to get by with beads, so I wanted to be able to mount a Burris FastFire on it.

Obviously, you don't walk into the gun shop and buy a monstrosity like this, so I knew it would be a project. I settled on a Yildiz; it was the lightest double available because of the alloy receiver, but the downside was that it only came with a single trigger. I can select the barrels easily, but nothing is as fast as a double trigger.

I first determined that both barrels shot to the same POA, and they did very well. I sent it to my gunsmith and he did a great job of creating my dream gun. He cut the barrels to 24" and rethreaded, opened the forcing cones, shortened the stock and added a quality recoil pad, and did a great job of mounting the sight. He also made 2 turkey chokes.

I shot the gun with light field loads when I got it back and both barrels centered well at 25 yards. Then I shot my heavy 1.75 oz tungsten turkey loads and found I had a problem. The left barrel shot 10" to the left at 40 yards, and the right barrel shot 7" to the right. It was only then that I started to get serious learning about barrel regulation of a sxs. I found that its impossible to get a sxs that will shoot all loads with both barrels to the same POI. You have to regulate the gun to shoot one basic load, and all others will be off somewhat.

In the case of the Yildiz, it is regulated to shoot light field loads and does it very well. It was not made for what I wanted to do. I was able to load some lighter shells that produced POIs that were about the same for both barrels, but I wasn't satisfied. I sent it to Brileys and had them make eccentric chokes for the heavy loads. It took them 2 tries, but they made it usable.



Its proven to be a very good turkey gun, and at 5 lb 2 oz is a dream to carry. It balances right at the receiver and now comes close to being the perfect turkey gun. I won't call it perfect because of the lack of double triggers, and the pattern on the tight barrel is not as good as I would like.

So my search for the perfect turkey gun continues. I don't think anyone makes one like I want, so I am probably out of luck.

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Welcome Coosa. That's a nice bird and your story about the trials of getting it to shoot where you wanted it to was interesting. A number of the guys here are using .410s with that tungsten shot. I'm still using lead but the idea of changing over to an ultra-light gun is intriguing...Geo

P.S. On the other hand how dead do you need'em to be?

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Originally Posted By: Geo. Newbern
Welcome Coosa. That's a nice bird and your story about the trials of getting it to shoot where you wanted it to was interesting. A number of the guys here are using .410s with that tungsten shot. I'm still using lead but the idea of changing over to an ultra-light gun is intriguing...Geo

P.S. On the other hand how dead do you need'em to be?


Thanks for the welcome! Yes, I am aware of several hunters using tungsten in a .410, and they are as effective as 3.5" 12 gauge guns shooting lead. Its amazing stuff. When I first started working with it 5 years ago, I developed a 3.5" load for my Super Black Eagle and have shot a bunch of turkeys with it. I eventually realized it is overkill to fire 2 oz of this stuff at 1250 fps at a turkey. The 1.75 oz 20 gauge load at 1100 fps will kill one further than I would shoot him, but the modified barrel of the Yildiz gives me such a big killing pattern that an old man like me can really use.

Are there folks using it in a .410 sxs? That would be a really interesting combo! I killed my first squirrel at age 9 with a borrowed Winchester .410 sxs and have loved the sxs ever since. The gun belonged to a neighbor, and he offered to sell it to my dad for $40. I begged for the gun, but he said it was too much. What would it be worth today? Something like $3k from what I can gather. Oh well.

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