doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion Classic & Custom Single Barreled Sporting Rifles @ doublegunshop.com My first (and probably only) Niedner

This came along on gunbroker a few weeks ago, I never thought
I would be able to afford a Niedner rifle, but this was well within my budget. It is a target rifle but still a Niedner
300 H&H





I apologize for the quality of the pictures. I'd like to learn as much as I can about this rifle, and would love to hear your thoughts and opinions. I would be happy to take more pictures.

It is made from a 1917 Enfield. Is it still a 30-06?

It is made from a 1917 Remington and rebarreled to 300 H&H Magnum

As you probably know, Ben Comfort won the 1935 Wimbledon Cup at Camp Perry, shoooting a .300 H&H target rifle made for him on a M1917 Enfield action by Griffin & Howe.
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2009/09/history-ben-comfort-1935-wimbledon-cup.html

This caused a sensation in the long range (1000 yard) shooting community and a sudden increase in interest for what had been until then a rather obscure cartridge.

Your Niedner looks really fine. I assume it is a single shot and that in place of a magazine there is a trough to facilitate loading. Pictures of the action with the bolt open would be nice, as well as the underside of the stock.

Congratulations on a great find.

This doesn't hold a candle to your Niedner, but this is my Dubiel heavy barrelled Springfield target rifle, made in imitation of the Springfield Model T or Special Target rifles, in caliber .30-'06:

Wow Bill, what a beautiful rifle. My sincerest admiration.
I went back and re-read some older threads on Niedner rifles.

This thread was really helpful.
Niedner thread

So, I took the action out of the stock and looked for a number and initials on the bottom of the barrel 1475 CB which would put the rifle as being made approximately 1938 and being rifled by Carlyn W. Behrman.

I also took off the butt plate,


I don't know how well you can see this, but it is stamped
"T SHELHAMER FOR BEN COMFORT"

Truthfully, I never knew who Ben Comfort was until I saw this and googled him.

These "Camp-Perry" rifles are an interesting part of our shooting history.

With any Niedner I would like to see the muzzle and the barrel number.

xausa,

Nice Dubiel, how is it marked and does it have a number with the name?

Fred,
Glad to see it came and you are happy. You must have couldn't believe your eyes when you read under the buttplate. Fantastic, Congrats!!!!!
Lynn

Hi Lynn,

Yes, I was totally happy when I saw what was under the buttplate.
I never dreamed that I would own anything with "Niedner" on it, or stocked by Shelhamer. This was a very wonderful surprise.

Alright, I took some more pictures for Michael and Bill.

Here is the number and initials on the bottom of the barrel.


Here is a view of the muzzle, the barrel is 32 inches long and
is 1 inch diameter at the muzzle.



Bill (xausa), you are right, it is a single-shot, here is a picture of the magazine block



and another looking down into the open action


and finally a picture of the bottom of the rifle, I think there may have been a barrel band on the rifle, but that at some later point they decided to free float it.

Fred, that is wonderful!

From the other thread..." If your rifle said Niedner on the barrel and Shelhamer on the stock, well, that said it all."- MP

Fred,

Is the Shelhamer name stamped with individual letters?

Yes, individual letters, do you have any hints for taking
a better picture of the buttstock?

Fred it's great to see someone you know find. Something so neat. Whitey

Fred,

I hate to rain on your parade but I think a little more research might be in order. We need to learn some background on Ben Comfort and see if he used a Niedner rifle.

The crown is right on, a square crown with bright metal.

Is the caliber marked on the barrel.

In my database 1461 & 1465 the only two numbers close to your rifle are .300 H&H.

In my experience Tom Shelhamer used a stamp with his name on it as seen below.



You might also take a close look at his inletting. Did you take pictures of the barrel and action inletting?

Michael, it's marked "Dubiel Arms Co. No. 734". It is fitted with an early commercial trigger of unknown make. I obtained it as a barrelled action only. A friend who collects Springfields had the stock, with the barrel channel already enlarged, which he was kind enough to let me have. The front band was fashioned from a M1917 front band, as were the originals, as I understand.

A friend showed me his Neidner, Shelhamer, Kornbrath target rifle. I thought it was just a rich man's toy,never thinking of it as a Camp Perry competitors' gun. It is one rare and beautiful gun.

Great a new number for my records.

I have seen Dubiel rifles that are marked �Made By John Dubiel Ardmore, Okla. No XXX� and �Dubiel Arms Co. Ardmore, OKLA.� I believe Dubiel may have continued on in numerical order with the Hoffman numbers. In my modest database of twenty-two Dubiel rifles the lowest number I have for "Made by John Dubiel Ardmore, OKLA� is No. 485 and the highest is No. 509. The lowest for "Dubiel Arms Co. Ardmore, OKLA� is No. 512 and the highest is No. 730.

Some of the target shooters spent some real money getting a nice rifle.

I think i saw this rifle (Niedner-Shelhamer) for the first time at the Amber auction and it come up for sale every few years.

Dear Michael,

Rain all you want on my parade, truth and research are important to me.

Here are some more pictures, I hope that they help.
First, a picture of the caliber markings
]

second a picture of the butt plate, it looks like a cast brass version of an 1903 NRA sporter buttplate, have buttplates like this been seen before on stocks from Niedner?




And here is another picture of the stamping on the stock



As for the inletting, I will take some pictures tomorrow, but I doubt they will be conclusive. It looks good, but unlike the 1903 action, the 1917 action doesn't have as many little details that will show the difference between good inletting and great inletting.

Fred

Thanks for the caliber markings, I don't see many marked with the caliber before late 1937 or so.

Is there a name stamped on the top of the buttplate like "Pacific"?

Yes, I didn't actually notice that there was anything on the buttplate until I saw the image. Looking at it with a set of optivisers, it reads "PACIFIC".

I do that all the time, photographed a rifle that I owned for years and looked at the pictures before I noticed it did not have sling swivels ;-).

Doc,
An interesting piece with historical ties! Are you aware of Elmer Keith's writings regarding the design of the original Comfort .300 rifle/ammo and his hunting trips w/Elmer? The most info is in "Hell I was There".
Let us know how this one shoots!

Good shooting.

Intresting rifle with a lot of history behind it

German Salazar has a pretty good article on Ben the Rifle and Wimbledon cup. Including a photo of one of his two rifles & the American rifleman article date

http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2009/09/history-ben-comfort-1935-wimbledon-cup.html

Salazar knows his stuff, hung on to long range 30 calibers when most competiton has gone to smaller bores. Other expert in the field is Hap Rocketto who also has a blog. Both experienced competitors. Might ask him for details too.

Opps Xusa already told us that.

Boats

Boats

If it's the same one and considering your location good chance it is. Twice a year after our Schuetzen match I ask the owner of that Neidner Kornbrath Springfield to pull it out so we can have another look. It's probably the finest rifle I have ever seen. I thought it was stocked by Bob Owen though.

Boats

You have identified the owner, and corrected my recollection of the stock maker. It is probably the finest rifle I have ever seen also. Does this rifle have provenance? I shoot with the owner at the same club, but I haven't seen the gun or asked that question for some time. Bill Murphy

PhysDoc

Having a long time interest in the heavy barrel, bolt action match rifles, I find your rifle very interesting.

If you would please, provide a few more details, it would be appreciated.

Diameter of the barrel at the receiver?
If possible, what is the rate of twist?

It is a very nice rifle, and definitely on worth preserving, enjoy it.

Thanks, and best regards,

What Cheer

I don't know how I overlooked this question from Michael, but the answer is that the barrel is marked "30-06 Dubiel Arms Co. No. 734."
The action is Springfield Armory number 1248887 and it is fitted with a Lyman 48 rear sight without the hinged aperture insert. The front sight is a Lyman 17, the kind with a dovetail made to fit the issue Springfield front sight base. It is mounted on an integral ramp with a dovetail cut which just fits the sight. The action is fitted with a custom trigger marked "EADS MFG. CO." and a headless cocking piece.

Whoever has Michael's records might be able to use this information

A note in the American Rifleman, September, 1936, says that Ben Comfort's Wimbleton rifle was stocked by Ernest Kerner of Griffin and Howe. There is no mention of a barrel maker in this item, page 49.

Hi What Cheer,

Thank you for your interest in this rifle. I am sorry it has
taken so long to get back to your questions about it, a combination of a vacation, and home repairs. I dug out the Niedner today and made the measurements you asked for. The barrel has a diameter of 1.2 inches at the receiver. I put a tight fitting patch on a cleaning rod and pushed it down the barrel and measured the distance the rod traveled while it made a complete revolution, it came out to pretty close to one turn in 10 inches.

Cheers

PhysDoc

PhysDoc,

Thanks for the additional information on your Niedner rifle. I was just curious as to the rate of twist, whether 1-10 or 1-12 inches.

Thanks again for posting the photographs of Dan's rifle

Thanks, and best regards,

Rick

I saw this on gunbroker today, a rifle that Ben Comfort may have used at Wimbleton

G&H 300 H&H

I hadn't thought about that rifle that Boats and I discussed earlier, but I'm thinking about it now. He described it as the finest rifle he had ever seen. He may be right. The Comfort rifle is expensive, but someone may pay the price, not me.

Gary D.

Thanks for your diligence, Gary. Your google-fu skills exceed mine. Yes, I'm the proud caretaker of this Dubiel rifle now. It pleases me to know that it passed through Bill's hands at one time. I bought it from the viewpoint of it being a nifty pre-war target rifle, without remembering it from this old thread.

I have installed a Fecker scope on it and plan to give it a whirl this weekend if the weather holds. Fred- this is the gun you provided the Lyman 48 slide blank for last week. I'm a cast bullet enthusiast, so the Dubiel may well only ever see cast bullets used in it from here on out. (As nice as the bore is, I have high hopes for it in that regard.)

I am trying to educate myself about a Niedner rifle that belonged to my Grandfather. He has been gone since 1980, but his Niedner remain�s in the family. He was a world class collector, and an expert marksman. He did shoot at Camp Perry, and was well known in his day. I have tried to search online, but this rifle has what I think is called a rolling block action, and all I can find are bolt action�s. Help, please. What kind of identifying marks can I look for? The top of the barrel is stamped with Niedner Rifle Corp, Dowagiac, MICH.

If it�s a Rolling Block rifle, remove the forearm and look for a barrel number and/or initials on the bottom of the barrel.

Joe

A couple pictures would really really help.

Bottom of the barrel has 808. Also, on the front of the receiver, under the forearm has 5 88. I will try to post some pictures. Thank you both for responding.

How can I get pictures posted here?

I appreciate the response�s trying to help. I am completely at a loss how to post picture�s here.

Mr. Stevens, you have to use a third party image hosting site. Some use photobucket, and you can see the thread on the main page about "Photobucket test".

I was steered toward imgur.com by a board member years ago.
On imgur.com, you upload your picture and then you have an album & images.
On imgur you click on the image and options pop up.
One says "BBCode(messageboards&forums)"
Click on that and you will be copying the image, than you come here and right click on your mouse 'paste' and voila!

Here is an Ithaca Grade 4 live bird gun of mine.




Hope this helps.

RedofTx. Thank very much for your help. I will try. Nice pics, nice work. Upon further inspection, I have removed the butt plate of the stock. The inside of the butt plate is marked 588. On the end of the stock is marked 588. When I raise the sight up in position to shoot, in the middle on the back side facing the rear of the gun is PATD. MAY 17, 1887. Barrel has Niedner Rifle Corp, Dowagiac, MICH Removed forearm, under side of barrel is 808 Forearm off, front of receiver is 52 8 Under rear of lever is 5 88 Underside of rear sight is. PATD. MAY 17 1887. I can find no other marking�s. Thanks again for the help with picture�s. I will get it figured out. I would love to learn more about this piece of history. I do remember being with my Grandfather at an indoor range about 1961, watching him shoot it.

https://imgur.com/zxCeShJ Niedner #1 I am sure open to suggestion's how to better get these pics on here. I have a couple more.

https://imgur.com/0Gqr2SG Niedner #2

https://imgur.com/FZBo9ci Niedner #3

https://imgur.com/CUIr1ig Niedner #4

https://imgur.com/fJevhY6 Niedner #5

https://imgur.com/ho9dC7s Niedner #6

https://imgur.com/WH4E9lZ Niedner #7

The rifle is a Stevens model 52, built on a 44 1/2 action, made between 1904 and 1917. Niedner only made the barrel.
Is it in .22 lr?

Nice, rifle is a Stevens Ideal #52, what caliber?

Don't the 44 1/2s made in 22RF have an extra screw forward of the lever screw for the ejector? Niedner also made a lot of 22 CF wildcats on 44 1/2 actions. But, as it is a target rifle we had best wait for an answer that may only come from a chamber cast.

Thank you very much. Now I should be able to better research this fine gun for more information. I do not know the caliber, but appear�s to be 32-40.

Thanks Gentlemen for helping me be able to do better research, and learn much more about this rifle. It is, as you said, a Steven�s Model 52. I am able now to find several of these online, with one exception....All of the one�s I could find had Steven�s barrel�s. I could not seen one online with a Niedner barrel. Being a Steven�s was appropriate because my Grandfather was an expert marksman, very well known, and owned an indoor range in town. And�-He was a serious collector of guns, old collector US coin�s, and clocks. He had hundred�s of gun�s. One part of his collection was the only known complete collection of Steven�s rifles. With the internet there might be other of those collection�s of Steven�s now. He died in 1980, before the internet, but at that time his was the only complete set of Stephen�s. I have some memory�s of going shooting with him, and him using this gun. So because of history I am so grateful to you guy�s for helping me finally learn much about this gun. One question though.....does the value of the gun go up or down with the Niedner barrel instead of the stock Steven�s barrel? As can be seen in the picture�s it is not a bright, shiny, gun in perfect condition, so I am wondering about if the value goes up or down if I have it shined up, or leave it as is? I know with coin�s that collector�s want the coin�s to Not be cleaned. Cleaning a coin ruin�s the value, so is it the same with antique gun�s? I don�t want to do the wrong thing with this gun. His gun. So anything I can learn, I am open minded and curious. Again, thank you all very much helping me, getting me pointed in the right direction finally be able to learn.

It goes up. Anything Niedner is a plus, but I would leave it as is. Cleaning is okay, but not "shining up" if that includes anything more than removal of dirt and grime. Other opinions may differ, but probably not much.

Based on past information posted. Niedner Rifle Corp employees stamped their initials on the bottom of the barrel they made. Does anyone know who the initials MCM might belong to?