doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Internal view of bar action hammer locks.

Plus I don't see why you had to bring that up, I just showed how they were both the same. [/quote]

The only similarity between those locks is that they are both bar action hammer locks. Kind of like saying a 1963 Ford Falcon & a 1963 Ferrari 250 GTO are the same because they are both front engine, rear wheel drive vehicles.

Let's see the inletting on the L.C. Smith!

I don't have the technical terminology or expertise that Bushveld expressed; all I know is I couldn't take my eyes off that mainspring.

Mike

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Above I have posted a link to a Purdey I have. Bushveld makes an interesting comment regarding fit and finish. I have to disagree.

There is very little either way between the two in terms of both. The thorn is dirty, as I just took it apart, the Purdey has been cleaned. The Purdey is a back-action as opposed to a bar action, but in terms of quality, they are on a par IMO.

Sorry I'm too technologically dim to post photos here of each lock side by side.

There is no question about the outside finish of your gun compared to most Quality F's, The Quality AA would stand out among any.
Of the internals working parts there is a great deal of hand work to fit either.
This particular Quality F, lowest grade made but the locks were built the same, cost $55 back then.

I understand you point, and was not comparing quality but how the locks were the same.

Locks are interesting to examine and speculate upon the skills of the maker.

Having made some replacement bridles for locks, I have come to respect the skill of the bridle maker and the bridle is one of the first, if not the first component of a fine lock that I examine to asses the skill of the lock maker.

In the two excellent examples that Mr. Haddock has provided (Thorn and later Purdey)if one examines the curved perimeter edges and more importantly the internal edges of the bridles that intersect with a "V" angle(tear drop openings and bridle split legs and so forth) the relative skill (and of course the time spent) is evident. It is a subtle difference but the filing of these V angle joints (that appear to have grown in place) is of great difficulty to do properly. Files small enough to do this work are not made and the craftman has to make tools to do this work. I have laboured and sweated over trying to make a bridle look as good as the Purdey Island Lock and have never made the grade--at least by my judgement.

Further it is one matter to have the front of the bridle V joints to look good and maybe perfect; but remove the bridle from a Purdey or Boss and the V angles will look perfect on the back side as well.

Having said all of this, the London best three do and did not have a cartel on quality. If you ever have an opportunity to examine a pre-WWI Midland Gun Company London pattern SLE, you will encounter such quality as well--even in the locks that were built by Midland and not the likes of the famous lockmakers to the London and Birmingham trade.

Of course I am biased and I admit to it, as to my mind a Island Lock Purdey hammergun is my ideal gun.

I have strayed from the subject here a bit and I ask for your indulgence, especially on a day where a left-handed American has bested the best in Scotland at one of the most difficult links in the world. Quality ran true.

The skill required to make a good lock always amazes me, especially those from an earlier time before specialized machinery replaced much of the specialized skills. This is from my W.H. Wilson, London, about two hundred years ago. To think that only a forge, file, chisel and perhaps a simple bow drill were the only tools available! Oh, perhaps they also had a hand tumbler mill. And to make both locks spitting images of each other! I cannot imagine such a level of craftsmanship. And it is amazing the lock was fully developed by the beginning of the nineteenth century!

Most interesting is the extra width given to the sear and tumbler for strength and durability. I believe the gun was made by Alexander Wilson, late of John Manton, whose workshop was at the same premises as W.H. Wilson's store. Relationship between them is not known.

"The only similarity between those locks is that they are both bar action hammer locks. Kind of like saying a 1963 Ford Falcon & a 1963 Ferrari 250 GTO are the same because they are both front engine, rear wheel drive vehicles.

Let's see the inletting on the L.C. Smith!" [/quote]


Not a back action (should have said hammer) but a 1908 Elsie R frame inletting. Don't see the Thorn has anything on the Elsie's inletting.


Say you want to see a back action main spring? 1882 Smith/Baker. It measures 15/32" wide.

2holer

I agree that the LC Smith example is cleanly inletted but if you can't see the difference in the complexity & execution of the inletting done on the W. Thorn with the inletting of the pierced bridle & the beds for the screw heads you clearly don't understand what you are looking at & what it takes to accomplish such work.

Well, ya see, Hunter Arms evidently didn't see the need to make things more complex than needed, but rather simple rugged and working. The more parts the more liability for breakage. I have six Elsies and have had zero problems with the locks.

The Elsie R frame I posted has only two screw heads in the bridle and if you look closely you will see the impressions in the wood. One is in the dark spot upper right: the other is obvious. The dark spot is where a little lube got on the wood and notice it is the shape of the bridle being closely fitted against the wood. So I would call that pretty good inletting work especially in a gun that costs far less.

What's the need for the wood being inletted into the pierced bridle anyway?

It is simply a matter of quality of work. Those who do not appreciate it, don't need it. I guess you fall into that category, which is fine. A two pin bridle is a feature of a cheaply made lock in general. Even three pins is pretty low grade.

I don't know why these discussions always seem to become so puffed chest 'my dad is better than your dad' in nature.

Yes, we know that cheap, simple, large limbed mechanisms still fire the gun and work for years and there is nothing wrong with them.

However, critical examination of all the locks posted will show very different levels of quality of work and finesse.

If 2holer appreciates rugged, then the Anson & Deeley should be his ideal but you can examine different A&D locks and see more quality and finesse in one (say, a best grade Westley) than another (say a cheap grade Midland Gun Co) - see, I chose two English examples so as not to upset anyone.

Brittany Man is not having ago at your gun, Just pointing out that the quality is what it is and that he can see it, while you cannot. The point of the forum is educational in part, here is a good opportunity.