doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com A Francotte Von Lengerke & Detmold shotgun help

The photo below is a 12ga Knockabout that Bob Beach says was in the first batch imported by V L & D in 1905. As you can see not much engraving but excellent workmanship.

James is correct. Here are some additional details. The following is from a publication that I am preparing on the Francotte models.

"Knockabout � Prior to 1905 the VL&D Knock About model was made in Germany by the firm of J.P. Sauer & Son. In 1905 the Knock About began to be produced in Belgium by Auguste Francotte. VL&D importation of all Sauer shotguns ceased in 1904 and did not resume until 1926. The Sauer built Knock About was a sidelock gun while the Francotte gun was a boxlock model. Apparently VL&D wished to replace the Sauer Knock About with a similarly priced, utility grade, but well-constructed, gun. While VL&D chose Francotte to manufacture the replacement, there is at least one example of a Belgian-made VL&D marked Knockabout sidelock model that may have been received as a sample prior to the decision to import the Francotte boxlock.


The Francotte Knockabout was a hammerless Anson & Deeley boxlock and was available initially only as an extractor gun, but in 1905 the ejector model was added. The lockup system consisted of a double under-bolt, an exposed Greener cross-bolt and a doll�s head rib extension. Initially, this model was available only with a half pistol grip and the gauges offered were 12, 16, and 20 with the first 10 gauge being received in December 1906. Knockabout guns had barrels described in the catalog as being made of �Nimrod Steel�. Initially, the Knockabout was available in barrel lengths of 26, 28, and 30 inches in the 12 gauge with a very few 32 inch barreled guns received as well. The Knock About was available with 30 and 32 inch barrels in the 10 gauge. Weight was between 6 � and 8 pounds. Retail prices before 1910 were: Ejector guns - $80 in 12, 16, 20, and 28 gauges and $85 in 10 gauge; Non-ejector guns - $60 in 12, 16, 20, and 28 gauges and $65 in 10 gauge."

Bob Beach
Compliments of Griffin & Howe, Inc.

Good stuff as usual, Bob. When did A&F start importing the Zoli-Rizzini doubles? Early 60's seems about right to me.

Larry and Bob, Francotte made Knockabouts were still in the racks at Abercrombie and Fitch when I was prowling the streets of Manhattan in 1961. All gauges were displayed and many, especially smallbores, were equipped with beavertail forends with a cut in the wood to allow access to the Anson forend release. We don't see many of these today because the prices were off the scale. $425 for the big guns and $485 for the 28 and .410. I'll let Bob tell us when the Rizzinis came on the market. Thanks, Bob, for letting me know that my 32" Knockabout serial number 82,517 is a bit scarce. Mine is the only one I've seen. One of these days, I'll get you to look it up for me and see whose gun it was. Bill Murphy

james-l;
What are the proof marks on your gun. Those on the gun in question certainly do not appear correct for a gun proofed 1905 or later.

Miller, here are the proofs on my Knockabout, notice that it has no nitro proofs, I guess they figured it was not necessary for us. It also has 2 5/8" chambers which was standard at the time for 2 3/4 " shells. This an unmolested 12ga 6 1/2 lb gun with 28" barrels, serial # 61414. According to my info the "not for ball" marking ended in 1897, plus there is too much engraving for a knockabout on the gun in question.

Bill, you're right about the Francottes getting pretty expensive . . . although my 1936 A&F catalog (Knockabout Ejector priced at $175) would indicate they were never all that cheap. But I think A&F went to the Zoli-Rizzini guns for the same reason Browning went to Miroku: guns from Belgium had become too expensive for a certain segment of their clientele.

Well sometimes we get kinda lost in the story. I went back to page 1 & looked some more. The Gun is not marked KnockAbout, nor did the original poster mention this name. Somewhere along the line it seems someone "Ass-U-Me"d KnockAbout.
James' gun has the crowned oval with ELG, is not marked "Not for Ball", but has bore & choke diameters marked. The gun in question does show VL&D on the top rib. I'm sticking my my opinion this gun was not built in 1905 or later so apparently VL&D did import Francotte made guns prior to 1905, just not marked KnockAbout.
PS; My Sauer made VL&D sidelock KnockAbout does have 2 3/4" chambers by actual measurement & is stamped 70 on the extractor face.

VL&D did import Francotte before 1905, I once owned a sidelock, # 18718 that was marked with their logo on the rib, it also had the "not for ball" marking on barrels,

Von Lengerke & Detmold began to import Francotte shotguns in 1889. You can find a brief history and a list of the models available through the years on my post in the FAQ section.

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=229207#Post229207

The shotgun in the original post appears to be a Quality "I" (not to be confused with the Grade No. 1). The characteristics include: light weight, Anson & Deeley action, Treble-Fast locking system (Purdey-type double under-lugs, an exposed Greener cross-bolt through a parallel rib extension), and intercepting sears. Most of the catalogs of the period describe this model as an ejector gun but my notes indicate that it was also made as an extractor gun as well. Right now I cannot locate the source of this except for the general statement in the 1896 VL&D catalog (page 12) which says that the lightweight models were available "both with and without automatic ejectors". As the basic lightweight model, the Quality "I" was likely the one to be most readily available as a non-ejector gun. One thing that appears certain is that the features of the particular models were not hard and fast. Just as with gun manufacturers today, models were changed as necessary to meet a price point or incorporate some improvement in appearance or function.

The serial number 20169 is too early to be recorded in our No. 1 VL&D ledger which was created in 1900 but a VL&D advertisement published in 1894 lists several Francottes that were being offered at reduced prices. Serial numbers 204xx, 206xx, 208xx are listed there along with 223xx. This suggests that the OP's gun, number 20169, was likely made between 1889 and 1894 but exactly what year I am uncertain.

As to the Zoli-Rizzini Knockabouts, the first Z-R Knockabout models were received at A&F in July 1961. All received in 1961 were DT non-ejector guns. At that time the Francotte Knockabout model, which was still available, sold for $425 for a DT with ejectors and $550 with a ST. The Z-R Knockabout had a retail price of $150 in 1961.