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Anyone have cartridge data on 10.75x52R Grundig?

I am trying to determine standard bullet weight and velocity; any actual tested reloading data would be good

I recently picked up a 10.75x52R Grundig Belgian made BLNE double rifle; I found it cheap on the internet and the seller had no idea what the specific cartridge was, I gambled it might be 10.75x52R Springer, which I already have one of, and lost. Though it has alot of carry wear it is still a nice gun and will be worth cleaning up.

�Old Colonel,� there are two basic versions of the 10.75 x 52R cartridge, one uses a straight-wall case and the other a bottleneck case, rimmed and rimless. Your latest Belgian-made 10.75 calibre double rifle employs the straight-wall case, or �Grundig,� version introduced by Utendoerffer c. 1900 for the rifles of C. Grundig of Dresden. Both case versions are said to be based on the 8 x 50R Austrian Mannlicher cartridge. The Grundig cartridge is reportedly listed in the RWS/Utendoerffer catalogues from 1908 to 1921. RWS had absorbed Utendoerffer in 1889 but continued to use the Utendoerffer head-stamp until the 1920's. This so-called straight-walled cartridge, although actually slightly taper-walled, known as the �10.75 Grundig,� was available in four lengths: 45, 52, 60, and 65 mm. Typically, the Grundig�s proprietary bullet was a round-nose, soft-point projectile, but the cartridge was also produced with a full jacket or jacketed hollow-point projectile. In the 1911 ALFA catalogue, however, the 10.75 Grundig is shown under its �metal� (i.e. using jacketed bullets) cartridges category for rifles with drop-down barrels. To add to our building confusion, DWM also listed this same cartridge as the 10.75 x 52R Dornheim, for G. C. Dornheim of Lipstadt, under DWM case number 495A.

The bottleneck version of this 10.75 x 52R case, which is that used in your Jules Bury 10.75 x 52R Springer double rifle, and made the subject of your July 2013 and responsive posts concerning load development for the same, is primarily known as either the 10.75 x 52R Springer or the 10.75 x 52R Mannlicher. The cartridge was offered for hunting purposes in the Hirtenberger (reference case number 593H c. 1931 catalogue), Springer (referenced as case number 975 in the 1939 Hirtenberger catalogue) and period Roth catalogues (under Roth case number 975). Oddly, Roth has no case number listed for the straight wall or Grundig case. On-line sources suggest that this Springer or Mannlicher rimmed bottleneck cartridge was perhaps developed for the Austrian-Hungarian Navy for use in a Springer or Mannlicher rifle, respectively, but this assertion cannot be confirmed. To Grundig, Springer and Mannlicher, Dornheim of Lipstadt has been added, although now we need to add the name of Roth to our expanded list of proprietary names.

W. B. Dixon, in his two-volume work European Sporting Cartridges, records there is a rimmed and a rimless version of the bottlenecked 10.75 x 52R Mannlicher, as he terms it, which is the alternative name for the rimmed 10.75 x 52R Springer. Confirming our earlier findings, Dixon states there is no catalogue listing or Roth number for the rimless case version. Dixon goes on to reveal that Hirtenberger, which had absorbed G. Roth in 1930, continued and expanded the Roth case numbering system. Case number 593H, for the 10.75 x 52R Springer or Mannlicher cartridge, never appeared in the Roth catalogues but it does appear in the 1931 Hirtenberger catalogue, and it is the bottleneck version that appears and not the straight wall or Grundig version. The 1939 Hirtenberger catalogue shows the same case, now terming it the �10.75 x 52R Springer,� and uses case number 975 instead of 593H. No version of either case is said to appear in earlier Roth catalogues. It is further speculated that since Hirtenberger used a Roth case number in their catalogues and states this 10.75 x 52R was a hunting-type cartridge, the cartridge also became known as the �Roth� hunting cartridge.

Indeed, the rimless bottleneck variation that is known as the 10.75 x 52R Roth Hunting Rifle has the dimensions shown below:

Calibre/Bullet Diameter: 0.424 inch or 10.8 mm
Rim Diameter: 0.492 inch or 12.5 mm
Base Diameter: 0.496 inch or 12.6 mm (reported elsewhere as 12.4 mm)
Case Shoulder Diameter: 0.475 inch or 12.1 mm
Neck Diameter: 0.450 inch or 11.4 mm
Case Length: 2.047 inch or 52.0 mm

Another reference to the 10.75 x 52R "Roth Hunting" cartridge conveys a bottleneck configuration, is described as being capped with a blunt round nose, nickel-jacketed, hollow-point projectile, and as having the H. UTENDOERFFER NURNBERG head-stamp. Its reported dimensions:

Bullet Diameter: 0.423 inch
Neck Diameter: 0.452 inch
Base Diameter: 0.485 inch
Rim Diameter: 0.541 inch
Overall length: 2.780 inches
Case Length: 2.047 inches
Rim Thickness: 0.043 inch

My inclination, although not an accomplished re-loader of cartridges for vintage or obsolete rifles, would be locate samples of the straight-walled 10.75 x 52R, say two or three examples in original and good condition, and disassemble them, for the purpose of taking measurements and weighing the constituent parts, etc. My guess is that the product of your earlier mentioned load development for the 10.75 x 52R Springer chambered double rifle would be the best starting point, after you have taken and factored in the weights and measures just described.

While researching this subject, I remarked a St. Petersburg, Russia, correspondent�s statement to the effect that 7.62 x 53R Russian (Nagant) might be used a basic case, which presumably means a usable straight-wall case could be fire-formed from it. Another possibility is the Bertram brass cartridge case. Their technical support staff can be emailed in Australia on: support@theammodump.com. They may have appropriate load suggestions in response to an inquiry. Their on-line catalogue lists a basic case in 10.75 x 65R mm, which could be sized and trimmed, for example.

Good luck in your quest! With my


Best regards,

Edwardian

The 10.75x52R Gruendig case had these dimensions: rim diam.13.7mm = .539", base 12.48mm = .491" , mouth 11.48mm = .452". I had success making cases for the shorter 10.75x45R Gruendig from PP 8x56R Mannlicher M30 brass: anneal, expand neck, trim to length, fire form . This should work with the 10.75x52R G too. 7.62x54R russian brass may need thinning the rims, but this depends on your rifle's chambers.
All the 10.75 Gruendig cartridges, x45, x52, x60 and x65R, used the same .423", 22.5gm =347gr jacketed bullets.
The original load for the 10.75x52R Gruendig was 3.2gm = 49gr Troisdorfer 1910 smokeless flake powder for a muzzle velocity of 600 m/s = 1970 fps.
Before you scoff at these small cartridges: Even the short 10.75x45R G with 347gr, 43gr 1910, at 1885fps was as powerfull as the .450 3 �" BPE with 325gr at 1770fps. My friend's Sauer&Sohn dr in 10.75x45R G shoots quite well with 45gr VV N140 behind the Woodleigh .423" 350 gr sn intended for the .404J

Pictures of the rifle?

old colonel,
I remember the drill you went through with your other rifle.You should do the same with this one and at least "slug"the barrel.Even though you now have the "normal" dimensions of the chamber, a chambercast may be helpful.For Kuduae's advice for brass, I believe you can get either 8x56R Mannlicher(note-this is not 8x56 MS)or 7.62x54R Russian brass from Graf & Son. My experience with their brass has been favorable.The Woodleigh bullet mentioned by Kuduae seems to be close to an exact match for the "factory" bullet.This is a pretty expensive bullet for general use and you might be able to more economicaly use common 44 cal jacketed bullets in the heavier weights for 444 Marlin.Such bullets can be sized to whatever diameter the barrels and chambers want.If i remember correctly,you went through this with the other rifle and may already have dies/bullets on hand.Also, if I remember correctly,Kuduae does this for one of his rifles, with good results.
Mike

I also put together some "economy" loads for HF's 10.75x45R G Sauer&Sohn dr using 300gr Hornady, resized from .428 to .423", and the same powder charge. With these lighter bullets HF's rifle crossfired, about 2" at 50 m, so I did not mention them. Maybe your rifle is more tolerant?

Perhaps excepting the 10.75x65R G, which used 4.0gm = 62gr R5 powder to push the 347gr bullet to 2200fps, same speed as the 10.75x68 Mauser, the shorter Gruendig numbers as well as the 10.75x52R Mannlicher aka Springer were never meant as "big game cartridges for Africa". Instead, they were meant as short range, open sight numbers for the European big game roaming the wildernesses of the then Austro-Hungarian empire and then not yet existing again Poland, brown bears, huge wild boar and giant red deer roaming the Carpathian woods. People were quite contend with the ballistics of the proven black powder numbers which produced large entry wounds, making tracking easier, but also wanted the advantages of smokeless powder and jacketed bullets. The bp cases were outsized for the then availble fast-burning nitro powders, so to meet popular demand these big-bore, reduced capacity cartridges were designed, to compete with the rimless 10.75x57 (2030fps) and 10.75x63 (2130fps) numbers.

old colonel,
Kuduae's concern for crossfiring is a consideration. Lowering the velocity may help.H&H was well known for making 375 H&H Flanged ammo with 300,270, and 235 gr bullets shoot together.To see if it is cross firing,use two targets next to each other.Shoot one barrel at one and quickly shoot the other barrel at the other.Three rounds from each barrel after cooling, should tell the tale(place one target on the other and mark the holes).
Mike

Thank you all for the input. I will post photos tomorrow, when I am back at my office computer.

I never realized the standard bullet for the 10.75x52R Grundig would be so heavy 22.5gm (347 grains). The desired velocity is much faster than I imagined as well 600 Meters per Second, wow.

I have found the woodleigh bullets from Midway and have them on order. I already have on hand the 7.62x54R Russian brass on hand for fire forming like I did the 8x56R for the Springer Cartridge.

I will have to determine cartridge capacity (water volume/weight)once I have finished the fireforming and cartridge trimming. It maybe greater then the book 69 grains of water, but I doubt it.

I ran the numbers in Quickload, which fortunately contains the Grundig cartridge (I don't have to build it like I had to on the Springer Cartridge). The Quickload show a volume of 69 grains which I need to verify as it does not have the volume to get 600 M/S / 1970 FPS. I have run the numbers with both N140 & N135, as well as every othe powder I have H-4198, H-4350, IMR-3031, IMR 4320, Reloader 15 & 17. I will have to research more for alternatives.

I have some 300 grain hornaday on hand that I can resize to .423. As well as some 240 grain already resized to .423. I will load up some of these while I wait for the 350 grain Woodleigh bullets to get here. I did note Woodleigh also sells a 347 grain bullet, but I have yet to find any in stock any where.

I believe I will find this another adventure. I have not yet finished my adventure with the 10.75 Springer and now I add the Grundig to it.

Kuduae, do you know the max pressure for the 10.75x52R Grundig?

Quickload (which is a German software progrm) shows 42061 PSI CUP CIP / 2900 Bars on all three 45mm, 52mm, & 65mm.

Is the Grundig cartridge unique in using the same bullet in three different lengths of brass?

The 347grain at 600 M/S is a real boar stopper

Sorry, but I haven't found any pressure data on the Gr�ndig cartridges. The 1921 RWS catalog does not give any load data or ballistics at all. The factory load data comes from a 1920s Steigleder, Berlin catalog. Only bullet weight, powder charge, muzzle velocity and energy given here besides prices. The next catalogs I have, RWS 1934 and DWM 1934, don't list the Gr�ndig cartridges any more.

I appreciate the input, it gives me a good starting point.

I will be loading some lighter slower stuff this weekend to get an idea about how the gun shoots and if the barrels have an obvious issue or not.

My intent is to work up to the classic 347 grain load as well as a lighterweight load more suitable for deer (if the lighter load can be made to shoot together)

Is there a place to purchase a reprint of the 1920s Steigleder Catalog?

By the way, would you have a catalog (other than Roth and Hirtenberger) that lists the 10.75x52R Springer cartridge?

MPD

Steigleder catalog reprint is available from the German Gun Collectors Association bookstore, $ 20.00:
http://www.germanguns.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&path=18&product_id=123
AFAIK the 10.75x52 R Mannlicher aka Springer as well as the rimless version were made only by ammo companies of the former Austro-Hungarian empire, that is Roth, (Keller?) Hirtenberger and perhaps Sellier & Bellot, Prague. German companies never offered this Austrian, more or less proprietary cartridge, so there is little chance to find it in any non-Austrian catalogs.

Thank you for the source, I will buy a copy for my reference library.

I have a binder for each of my guns in which I place all the pertinent data on each; from what I paid and from who, to technical data on the gun itself, photos, history of the gun and cartridge, reloading data and method.

The intent is to allow whoever follows me with a given weapon to have a record and everything they could possibly want to know about the gun and especially in the case of the double rifles provide key loading information in order to save the learning curve.

old colonel,
Now that is a very good and thoughtful idea. We all should do that, it would be a big help for the grandchildren.
Mike

Hello "old colonel", Edwardian et al.
I wonder if you have any info on the velocity etc. of your 10.75x52 Springer.
I am contemplating to purchase a gun in this caliber and was curious about how much energy is realistic in that round...
The gun is a tad over 7lbs, so it can't be a hell of a lot.
Best regards,
WC-

I am currently on the road and will not have access to my stuff until around 26 June

On the 10.75x52r Springer my reloading lead me to a 240gr bullet at 1800 FPS as regulating for my gun. There was still room pressure wise to go faster. I just ran out of time and will go back later this year and get it faster.

I believe a nearer to original load would be a 258gr bullet at 1780 FPS.
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=331364&page=1

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