doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Question on W W Forsyth

A friend called me and told me he has a 10 gauge made by W W Forsyth. I am wondering if anyone can tell me about this maker. The gun is a side Lever with 28 inch Damascus barrels. Unfortunately I am not familiar with this maker. Any information is appreciated. I will take a look at the gun tomorrow.

Apparently imported to US by Powell & Sons of Cincinnati. But the only Forsyth I can trace with a London address is the Rev. Alexander of percussion lock fame. The proof marks should determine origin. Would 28" barrels in a 10g of the damscus era be correct ?

they could be, although that was on the short side of normal for the day, but 28"s were made, at least by some makers. some 10s were surprisingly light.

but if this gun was a lower end import, it would be unlikely. And if the gun is heavy over all, then it is even less likely to be original length

I will post pictures tomorrow. It seems like from the response this is not a very well known maker. The gun seems to be pretty nice, and of decent quality.

Possibly Forsyth was a retailer Phillip ? I know every town in the uk , as well as the rest of europe had a ironmonger who probabily sold guns and shooting equipment as well as general hardware and tools, i believe some of them had guns made up by the british or belgian trade with their own names engraved on them. Just a thought.

I've got a Forsyth hammer gun that I wasn't able to find much info on. It seemed like it had some connection to the Rev., but the British proof marks were later than he was supposed to be in business. Perhaps the same family?

Thanks for all of the feedback so far. Here are some pictures. I hope this will help to provide some additional information.

My inner Captain Obvious says the most interesting pic, that of the barrel flats, is missing.

That's a 14 bore, not a 10, isn't it?

I think the Proof Marks are Brumingham 1855 to 1868 ?. Nothing wrong with that of course.
As previously posted this is a 14 bore, not a 10. Many of these were chambered as a 12 and usually have loads of meat in the barrels if you had to lap out for reproof.
Couple of queries for me tho, that side lever does not really match the hammers in profile, would have thought it should have been finished 'round' and also the ivory bead. Dont know if that is original and my puter skills are not good enough to get a decent close up of the muzzles, certainly looks like there is plenty wall thickness there.
Not a bad looking old gun though. Must have a look for B,ham maker or barrel maker AB, that should help to pin it down.

A quick look for 'AB' was not much help. I did find many barrel-makers named Bayliss around the right period, but no 'A'. Also an Alfred Bruton B'mkr and Arthur Burr, B'mkr. Probably a total wild goose chaseand i am missing the obvious.

The barrel flats show no marks. Also it is definitely a 10 gauge with 2 7/8" chambers. The bead does not look original. I did find that a 1874 P. Powell&Son catalog listed W W FORSYTH shotguns. If anyone has this catalog I would love to know what it says. I found I can also buy this catalog that has been reproduced.

I'm not sure, but I mean Holland & Holland used some Forsyth patents...
I will look after tonight.


Gunwolf

There was a forsyth and co in leicester square in london operating between 1816 - 1852. Trade labels can be seen if you scroll down the page in the link below.

http://www.peterdyson.co.uk/acatalog/TRADE_LABELS.html

The Forsyth in Dyson's catalogue is the Rev. Alexander, inventor of the percussion lock among other things. No record that he had any connection with W W Forsyth.

Ah right, its strange that the Rev Forsyth didn't set up shop in edinburgh, i would have thought it was as good a city as london for selling guns.

The Forsyth I mentioned earlier in this thread was actually a J. Forsyth, not a WW like this one. It is a bar action hammer gun that was a bit later than this.

Does one hammer spur differ from the other, or is it just camera angle

Still can not figure out how the Proof House marked a 10g as a 14. Must have been a free beer day at the Proof House ?

There were guns, forgot by whom, which were essentially 20 bore 12 chamber - thought they could get a ballistic advantage this way. A 14 bore 10 chamber could be based on a similar idea.

Have a Look:

Gunauction

and another:

Gunauction 2

"Vet nice WW Forsyth St. James London (engraved on top rib of gun) PINFIRE double shotgun- very early piece. Nice delicate engraving on side plates, trigger guard, rear of barrel, tang. Nice checkering on wrist and forearm. Stock is in excellent shape and a very nice burlwood pattern, Fuctions pefectly. Some spotting in bore. A very nice early english pinfire double by a well known English gunmaker. NO RESERVE! Paypal OK."


He was among the first building breechloading guns.


Best Regards,
Gunwolf

Now that is interesting.
Wonder what the underlever set-up was. Could not be a Jones screw grip as that came along in 1859.
Even more interesting, there is no trace of W W Forsyth in any of the scribblings by Greener,Burrard,Teasdale-Buckall, David Baker,Ian Crudgington, Nigel Brown etc etc. Even the late Geoffrey Boothroyd, who I sometimes did research for, makes no mention of him.
Really p'd off that Crudgington & Baker missed him, I have always had the utmost confidence in their research.
Ah well, you live & learn (every day)

This gun was made at a time when the English gun trade was facing serious problems with guns being sold with spurious names.This could well be another example of this nefarious trade. For example I encountered a similar gun of Birmingham origin bearing the name, Nock-London fine Damascus. Obviously made long after the demise of this famous maker.
The name, W.W. Forsythe, suggests to me spurious origin!
See W.W.Greener, The Gun, Page 415 for his comments on this practice.

Another one:

W.W.Forsyth Gun

BTW, the credibility of Greener himself is not always top...... ;-)

Gunwolf

That was called the "Vena Contracta" introduced by Jospeph Lang sometime in the 1890's. I think the subject gun dates a while before that, if I am getting the proof marks right.

And mentioned in this book(s):

Cornell Publications

Kind Regards,
Gunwolf

Thank you so much for all of the input, it is greatly appreciated. I now am the proud owner of the gun, I just really like the gun. I wrote to Cornell Publications and they have responded with the following Carder mentions WW in his book Side by Sides of the World 1997 - Carder and Bannerman 1945 Military Goods Catalogues lists Forsyth guns and locks. If any members of the forum have this reference material I would love to know what they can find.

While researching a WW Forsyth shotgun I bought last weekend I turned up this old post. I think I bought this exact shotgun. 55 yrs ago I had a friend buy one just like this( maybe not the same maker but an upland style 10ga with a side lever and wedge forend fastner) while I went home to get the money to purchase it and have been looking for one ever since.

I think this is a 10ga that was intended as an upland gun as the weight is only 7 lb. 14 oz.

I intend to shoot it and load some very light loads of lead BB's and take a coyote with it.

The WW Forsyth along side my FEG 12ga bird gun, really not a lot of dimensional difference.

I have a nicely made Birmingham pinfire 12 ga. with a Jones type underlever. The rib is marked W W Forsyth St James London. made for Syms and Bro New York Laminated Steel. Syms was a large importer of guns and munitions for North America during the Civil War period. The gun is well decorated and I have shot it in the fall for upland birds.

Interesting that there are a few surviving guns but so little info on the supposed maker. I saw one on a auction sight in England, another pinfire. It must have been a fairly decent company if they were big enough to export. Or just a broker for English shotguns, like some German drillings and shotguns just marked with the retailer name on them, although they say "Made By" on them.

A fella bragging on the pattern of his Forsyth in the May 21, 1874 Forest & Stream - R column at the bottom
https://books.google.com/books?id=EjUaF7Y1k90C&pg=RA1-PA234&lpg

Interesting, another pinfire shotgun, so far all I've seen are references to pinfire shotguns. I'll have to take a closer look at this one and see if I can tell if it is a conversion.

Thank you for the reference.

Still looking and found another pinfire with "WW Forsyth St. James London " on the top rib. the description says well know English gun maker.

https://www.gunauction.com/buy/2567768