doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com 2 3/4" in a 2 1/2" Chamber

Steve

I will not tell anyone that it's safe to shoot longer 2 3/4" ammo in a 2 1/2" gun. I will however tell you that I reload to below 7000 psi in the longer hulls and shoot them in my 2 1/2" light game gun. I have been watching several boards for about 5 years and I have never heard of any problems with this practice. If you are concerned just buy the factory ammo for the peace of mind. That has to be worth something.

Jim

Jims advice is good. You have to do what makes you comfortable.

Some folks will shoot damascus guns, some won't. The same advice applies.

It is absolutely not the same choice as shooting damascus guns or not shooting them. A damascus barreled gun proofed for use with 70mm loads is as safe as a steel barrel proofed for the same - it has been 'prooved' to be so. Shooting an out of proof steel gun or an out of proof damascus gun is equaliiy stupid and risky.

This is especially true of old British guns, that were constructed carefully to certain dimensions and tolearances according to the job they were required to do.

Anybody putting 70mm ammunition in a 2 1/2" proof stamped shotgun is a fool in my opinion. Anybody advising others that it is a safe practice is irresponsible to put it mildly.

Some people feel comfortable doing 100mph on an old motorbike without a helmet - that doesn't make it safe or sensible!

British guns are proofed to withstand regular use with the ammunition designed for use in them (that is the point of the various proof options; otherwise everything would have been built to weigh 8lbs, given a 3" chamber and 4 tons per square inch proof).

Why is it so difficult to understand that if you use the wrong ammo, it will eventually damage the gun and is potentially dangerous?

Perhaps it is dumb thinking like this that has led Beretta et al to put 3" magnum steel shot proofed barrels on even their light 20-bores today - because the shooting public can no longer be bothered to follow the simple instructions given about selecting the correct load for their guns.

If you are going to shoot old shotguns, understand what they were built for and load them with the right ammo. I can see no excuse for putting a 70mm shell in a 2 1/2" chamberd gun.

Then I'm a fool. Sometimes I use light 2 3/4 case loads in 2 1/2 chamber English guns, because UK chamber dimentions standarts are not so tight as German ones for example. Also it depends on forcing cone length and bore gauge. 12G, 13/1 and 13G are o'key in this case.
I feel I'm pretty much educated to check guns and to choose right ammo for these guns. Sometimes 2 1/2" case doesn't mean at all it could be used in 2 1/2" chambers.
Who says use ONLY 2 1/2 ammo in 2 1/2 chambers probably a fool, because ammo has to be proper to particular gun in many aspects and not only in case legnth.

Gough Thomas must have been a fool as well as 20 years before Sherman Bells' article, he intimated in "Shotguns and Cartridges for Game and Clays" that proper pressure 2 3/4" shells were ok in 2 1/2" chambered guns.
I have never had any problem using plastic 2 3/4" low pressure reloads in such guns.
That being said, RST makes 2 1/2" 12 gauge shells that are milder and burn cleaner than I can duplicate and they deserve your business.

Here is what I have in mind. A 12 ga reload using Remington hull, Rem 209P primer, PurplePC wad, 16.7 grains of Clays, 1 oz shot. This load produces 1125 FPS @ 6100 psi. (Data from Hodgdon Manual, 2002) The gun that this will be used in is a Wm Lee (circa 1890) SLNE with nitro proofed barrels. For very ocasional use, mostly at vintage events and skeet.

I plan on evenutally using a similar PSI load in my 16's as found in the data from that I received from the 16 ga reloader's organization.

I have a case of Westley Richards, Classic Game Load 2 1/2" (65mm) Shells. After using a couple of boxes, I feel uncomfortable using them in this gun because there is no pressure data (that I could find)

I would appreciate any and all feedback.

PS: I went back over my DGJ's and found Sherman Bell's article.

Since I am a fool, I wouldn't hesitate.
I see this load as a very sensible choice.
My personal 12 gauge load for 2 1/2" brit doubles
consists of 24 grains of SR 7625 in a Win AA or Rem STS case, win 209 primer and Win AA or Claybuster wad.
I don't recall the exact ballistics as I have been using this load successfully for ten years. It ias right out of the old IMR booklet. It is a bit dirty as most slow burning powders are. Using less than one ounce of shot with this powder produced duds for me.

"It is extremely dangerous to shoot 2 3/4-inch hulls in a gun chambered for 2 1/2-inch cartridges. The reasons against such a practice cannot be stressed enough."

"First of all, the cartridge itself is too long to fit into the chamber properly, the end result being that the front end of the hull is forced into the chamber cone. This will cause serious rise in pressure, a dangerous factor in itself."

Beyond that, powder and shot charges in 2 3/4-inch cartridges are usually heavier than those used in 2 1/2-inch shells, for which your gun has been proofed. By combining these two factors, you run the risk of building up a higher pressure than your shotgun can withstand, thereby increasing your chances of an accident."

"To be on the safe side, stick with 2 1/2-inch cartridges."...

From the editor of SHOOTING SPORTSMAN magazine Feb/March 1988 page 89.

"Sherman Bells articles in DGJ have shown that it MAY be ok."

May is still not definitive.
I'm still having a hard time believing that most of the educated people here talk about gun safety and do this. First of all WHY would you want to do it. There are loads out there made for 2 1/2" chambers, why take a chance on ruining a great old gun and possibly hurting yourself or a bystander.
It's the same as saying I can shoot 3" shells out of my 2 3/4" proofed modern gun. It will fit right into a 2 3/4" chamber why not use it, and it's only figurativly a 1/4" longer.
Those of you that have done it and are still doing it, bless you, though I won't be doing so and I hope that all goes well for you. I hope there will be no pictures posted of blown barrels like the gentleman who shot bizmuth through his old gun.

Small Bore has hit the subject square on the head in his statement.

I fully understand the prudent concern on this subject. And I also fully understand the very real danger of someone reading this thread and only walking away with overly simplistic mantra of "it is now OK to shoot long shells in short chambers" because I read it on the DGJ BBS.

That all said, the issue is pressue - specifically the impact to pressure due to the slighlty longer shells in shorter chambers.

Bell, Burrard, and others have shown that while there undoubtably IS an increase in chamber pressure with slightly longer shells, that the pressure increase is not huge - nominally about 15%. If that additional 15% increase in pressure pushes the total pressure above the working pressures the gun was designed to operate in, then I agree you have a problem. If that pressure is still well below the safe threshold, then you are within the pressures that the gun was designed to handle.

I agree with several posters that it is pretty easy to obtain 2.5" shells that are loaded to lower pressures. So there is no pressing need to do this. Still, it makes me uncomfortable to hear the overly simplistic cries of "extreme danger" when the people who have obviously read up on the issues and taken the time to think hard about the subject are characterized as some type of looneys for doing so. Reminds me of the "damanscus" threads on other boards.

Geno is also right. Just because you are shooting 2.75" shells in 2.75" chambers (or 2.5" shells in 2.5" chambers) is no guarantee in of itself of safety in older guns. The issue is pressure. And of course the biggest problem here is that MOST commercial 2.75" shells are loaded to higher pressures than 2.5" shells. So it is not an apples to apples comparison from the start.


We have thrashed out this topic on the board before. For the vast majority who do not want to work through the intricacies of the pressure issues on their particulr gun, then it is best to stick with the low pressure 2.5 shells in 2.5 chambers. It just irks me to be characterized as doing something dangerous from some have not read in depth on the topic. It reminds me of the time a fellow "expert" shooter about yanked the double out of my hands on the range because he saw it to be a nice damascus double.

Ken