doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Recoil in a Paradox gun?

15lb gun 7-71/4"
Advertising for the period indicates increased velocity (I don't have a fully rifled Holland 8 but had another makers gun here for a while a 17lbder and velocities were similar). The fact that the majority of the big bore pdxes were made a couple of pounds lighter than fully rifled guns is a "smoking gun" indication of lighter recoil.
If you have an interest or curiosity in the paradox you might want to invest in Roger Lakes book "Paradox" It would be impossible to duplicate the information in this book, if one were to try and do so on his own.

The big bores and the Super magnum are considerably faster (450 to 500fps).

I said somewhat less recoil not no recoil.

I will have an H & H 16 gauge Paradox at my table (within the group of tables for the Lefever Arms Collectors) if you are bringing your scale and spinner. I'm not sure how that would add light to this discussion, but you are certainly welcome to take any and all measurements!

We need to compare apples to apples. We were talking about 8 bore conical guns And let me get the semantics correct without any puffing;
The 8 bore paradox has the ability to shoot a conical bullet of the same weight with the same powder load at a higher velocity than the fully rifled arm and with lower recoil. Holland and Holland took advantage of the reduced recoil to shave a pound or two off the paradox. That would mean recoil would be similar to that of a pound or two heavier fully rifled gun. I would believe the same could be said for the 20,12 and 10 bore paradox guns in comparison to corresponding rifles with similar loadings.
The 8 bore paradox was never offered with a nitro loading.
As to recoil decide for yourself;

Looking at those recoil figures, I have to wonder how they ever got anyone to shoot one of the larger bore guns more than once.

The formula for Recoil Energy (Kinetic) is RE = �MV�.
A 15 lb gun recoiling @30 FPS will give that 210 FtLbs of recoil energy shown for the 8 Bore with 1257 grain "Ball" @ 1500 FPS, matters not whether its rifled, smooth or part of each.
Take a 12ga half that weight (7�lbs) & fire 1� oz to 1250 fps & you will get a recoil velocity of about 15 FPS or half that quoted for the above 8 gauge. This 7� lb gun recoiling @ 15 FPS will give a recoil energy of 26 FtLbs or 1/8th that of the 8 bore.
Note that on the weight side of the formula the change is linear while on the velocity side it is proportional to the Square, thus multiplying both factord by 2 gives not 4 times the RE but 8 times.
Of importance though is KE is highly subjective. Of far greater importance to the person firing the shot is the Recoil velocity which in these two cited examples has doubled.

[quote=PM
15lb gun 7-71/4"

Objective handling of the Paradox should be something like the "more or less comparables" that follow:

W. J. Jeffery Double Rifle BLNE, .600 NE, 24" bbls, 14 3/8" LOP, weight = 14# 8 oz, balance = 5 3/8", unmounted swing effort = 2.70, Mounted swing effort = 14.89, compactness = 9.29

Westley Richards New Drop Lock BLE 2009 Production, 8 bore, 34" bbls, 15 1/4" LOP, weight = 12# 7 oz, balance = 7 5/8", unmounted swing effort = 3.38, mounted swing effort = 17.43, compactness = 11.22

Greener SXS side lever hammer NE #11510, 10 - 2 7/8" bore, 36" dam bbls, 14 1/4" LOP, weight = 11.56, balance = 7", unmounted swing effort = 3.08, mounted swing effort = 14.34, compactness = 11.11

Subjective for the above is as follows: weight is " very, very heavy" ie. lots for muscle effort to lift and carry, balance is very forward, but, generally managable, and both mounted and unmounted swings are very slow. The unmount swings are at the top end of heavy target guns and the mounted swings are near heroic at about 1/3 more than heavy target guns. If unfamiliar with such heavy guns, consider shooting a typical pair of game guns --- at the same time!!! The foregoing is in no way intended to imply "poor" handling, rather it is intended to show that such guns do, indeed, require considerable muscle effort.


Advertising for the period indicates increased velocity (I don't have a fully rifled Holland 8 but had another makers gun here for a while a 17lbder and velocities were similar). The fact that the majority of the big bore pdxes were made a couple of pounds lighter than fully rifled guns is a "smoking gun" indication of lighter recoil.
If you have an interest or curiosity in the paradox you might want to invest in Roger Lakes book "Paradox" It would be impossible to duplicate the information in this book, if one were to try and do so on his own. [/quote] I can't come up with a plausible explaination as to why a Paradox might have lower recoil than a fully rifled gun. I suspect that H&H may well have discovered that they could get the same performance on game with the Paradox as with a fully rifled gun. They also knew that they could cut a "couple of pounds" off the weight of the Paradox, but not the rifle (say 15% weight reduction) but also knew that reducing weight would cause a sales problem unless they addressed recoil. Consider the concern for recoil expressed in this thread!! Sooooo, the advertising department "decided" that the Paradox, for unexplained reasons, had less recoil than the rifle. We all know how committed to truth ad departments can be. And, by the way, looking at the recoil and KE table, is it any wonder the .577 and .600 NE's eclipsed the 8 bore?

DDA

Were not comparing 16 bore upland game guns to DG bore rifles here. There are no illusions; DG bore rifles are heavy but the Holland 8 paradox when compared to like weapons shoulders and swings like a much lighter gun. When it is between your hands and on your shoulder it does not feel like a 15lb gun. That may be subjective and jmo but I would not be the first to voice it in this century or the one previous.