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Forums10
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Apr 29th, 2024
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 12
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 12 |
Were not comparing 16 bore upland game guns to DG bore rifles here. There are no illusions; DG bore rifles are heavy but the Holland 8 paradox when compared to like weapons shoulders and swings like a much lighter gun. It will be interesting to gather some data on this. Which "like weapons" are you consideing.
When it is between your hands and on your shoulder it does not feel like a 15lb gun. That may be subjective and jmo but I would not be the first to voice it in this century or the one previous.
W. J. Jeffery Double Rifle BLNE, .600 NE, 24" bbls, 14 3/8" LOP: weight = 14# 8 oz, balance = 5 3/8", unmounted swing = 2.7, mounted swing = 14.89, compactness = 9.29
CSMC RBL Sporting BLE #RBL00439, 12 bore, 32" bbls, 14 3/4" LOP: weight = 9# 5 oz, balance = 5 1/8", unmounted swing = 3.25, mounted swing = 11.17, compactness = 12.73
Comparing the .600 NE to the above 12 bore, the .600 is 56% heavier, unmounted swing is 17% less effort, but mounted swing is 33% more effort, and the .600 is 27% more compact. The higher compactness of the .600 allows for unmounted swing with less effort than one much lighter gun. However, the .600's compactness is not sufficient to overcome the extra 56% of weight, so more mounted swing effort is required. Handles like a lighter gun? Yes, in some cases.
"JMO's" are valid for subjective. However, I have found that JMO's tend to follow published opinions and expectations. You gotta admit that H&H did hype the Paradox.
The game gun pair comparison was given to give a visulation to those totally unfamiliar with NE rifles, gaige rifles and Paradox type guns. There is no point in comparing a game gun to a Paradox other than for objective curiosity - they just don't overlap in purpose.
DDA
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 623
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 623 |
On a subjective basis I already have. What bore rifles do you have at your disposal?
Last edited by PM; 11/17/13 11:58 PM.
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 623
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 623 |
Hype the paradox? In what respect, the big bores (8s,10s), the versatility?
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,553
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,553 |
I just wanted to perhaps explain my Q better...bare with me My point was if a roundball/bullet is under sized for the bore, as Ross Sefried suggests for a paradox... The projectile is racing ,kinda friction free down the bore..it then slams into the meaty , wide n deep Paradox rifled section at the muzzle. Wouldn't the energy of that bullet, when it hits the first part of the chunky rifling, hammer into that, & as the rifling cuts& grabs into the bullet wouldn't that give the gun a slight shunt away from the shooter.... downrange? I realize the gun is recoiling, but thought the slam into the rifling might push the gun away, thus slightly reducing felt recoil I can't see how this wouldn't happen?.It would be impossible to measure though..youd have to remove the rifling section to find the dif'..duh Sorry to repeat, but don't understand why not franc D- in Physics 
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,464 Likes: 212
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,464 Likes: 212 |
There was some thought earlier about felt recoil occurring at maximum acceleration. If that holds to be true, isn't maximum pressure seen around the chamber. Seems like in that case, if the ball engages rifling right away, it should produce less recoil. If friction is pulling the rifle away from the shooter to some degree that can be distinguished by the shooter.
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743 |
Its been many years ago but I fired a 3.5" Rocket launcher. Realize of course this is nothing but an open tube to guide the rocket & has no closed breech. There was a definite forward pill from the friction as the rocket went down the tube. As it cleared the muzzle the ejecting gasses would give a slight rearward thrust to the tube from contacting the bell placed on the end to protect the firer. I can feel the barrel movement in a long recoil gun such as the A-5. Other than these two examples I have never felt anything but one continuous push. Realize that the instant the gasses start expanding from burning the powder the projectile starts moving one way & the gun the other. Both have reached their maximum acceleration as the projectile clears the muzzle. The escaping gasses does play a small part to accelerating the gun Just a Wee bit longer than the projectile.
The projectile has obtained its Muzzle'V & the Gun its Recoil'V.
"IF" for instance the projectile has reached 1200 FpPS & the gun perhaps 15 FPS, then the projectile is traveling 80 times as fast as the gun. This has all occurred in less than .003 of a second during which time the projectile has traveled the length of the barrel & the gun something on the order of 5/16-3/8 of an inch.
Built in Inertia/Momentum carries both for the rest of their travel. Sure if you have a significant difference in "Measurable" recoil you can feel it. When it comes to "Feeling" differences which cannot be measured, I will just say "The Power of Suggestion" is very strong in a lot of people.
Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,464 Likes: 212
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 7,464 Likes: 212 |
....the instant the gasses start expanding from burning the powder the projectile starts moving one way & the gun the other. Both have reached their maximum acceleration as the projectile clears the muzzle. The escaping gasses does play a small part to accelerating the gun Just a Wee bit longer than the projectile.... No big deal here Miller. I think, when the bullet, and gasses, clears the muzzle, it probably reached maximum velocity, not maximum acceleration. It might be like riding in a car, when it's going at a steady speed, you can't feel it change speed, or accelerate.
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Joined: Dec 2001
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743 |
Realize that when the procjetile clears the muzzle, the entire barrel is full of gases. They continue to exit & pick up speed in doing so. The gun may well continue to accelerate for a teeny weeny micro second longer than the projectile, but it will be so continuous, & in the same direction, you won't actually feel it as a separate component as with the rocket launcher example. It will just be a part of the recoil.
It is though noted that powder charges in proportion to total load are normally quite small in a shotgun. Compare for instance a 1oz load in a 12 gauge total wt of shot, wads & powder may reach 500 grains. If the powder charge were 20 grains then it would make up only 4% of the entire weight to be ejected. On the other hand if we took even the low powered .30-30 with a 150 Gr bullet & a 30 Gr powder charge the powder makes up 16.666% of total ejector wt. Thus the ejecting powder gasses from a .30-30 make up a higher portion of the recoil than do the gases from a shotgun. You still however do not "Feel" them separately, but just as a single "Kick". If we went to a larger .30 cal cartridge which used a 180 gr bullet over 60 grs powder then the powder is a full Ľ of the total wt. This is why recoil reducers
(muzzle brakes) are so much more effective on rifles than shotguns. Even so their is a small component of gases exiting the muzzle after the wad has cleared & this does contribute to the recoil.
Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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