doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Independent engravers in the early 1900's

Just curious?? Seems like we are locked into a system of graded guns from certain manufacturers that have basically the same engraved pattern from gun to gun and done in house. With all the SXS's out there in the early 1900's, didn't someone hang a shingle and do independent work like our Ken Hurst is doing now? Anyone have any SXS's that have engraving by some maverick in the early 1900-40's? I would think there would have been a great market for independent engravers to do work on existing SXS's. Please enlighten me and share photos of guns with custom engraving. Buggered screws and barbed wire scratches are not considered custom engraving. Randy

I wonder how much money that there would have been as an independent. Look at what high grade british guns cost to engrave. A pound ot two per gun. Tranlate that into ten dollars US at the time. Much easier to make money in the metal engraving of rings and silverware I suspect. Same skills and I have to think that Silver and gold are a heck a lot easier to scratch than gun metal.

I suspect that those who did not work for the big five makers had to pickup work whenever they could find it and would slip into metal engraving of one type or another as it came to them. Maybe a few were in such demand that they could do as you suspect but not that many I suspect. ANd if they were that great then would it not seem like one of the larger makers woud try to hire them?

KY is dead on !! Most all engravers of any real experience worked independent of the factory they engraved for. There were some who Did work only for the larger factories fulltime however. Mr. Nimschke & Kornbrath had business' where they engraved jewelry, silver services, calling cards & stationery as well as firearms. Had to make a buck where ever they could. Ken

Ken and KY, So few guns came out of this era with one of a kind engraving? Didn't even the Czar Parker have a factory engraving pattern that even Joe Blow could have had? Seems odd that no one wanted their favorite dog or mistress engraved on the sideplate? Randy

I think you have far less cooky cutter patterns when you are talking about Lefevers. There is great variety, for example, even from woodcock to woodcock on a mid-grade gun, like an F. There is a very great variety of detail on the high grade guns. I have to think that the engravers, specially on the high grades, were independent of the company and that the work was contracted out to them for the high grade guns. I guess there are a lot of questions around this: were all Lefever engravers independent or only some or none. Anyone have any answers?

The vocation of 'metal engraver' in that time period was not all that unusual as it is now. There was not the industrialized methods of mechanical cutting of dies, stamps, signs, printing blocks etc and all the everyday adornments like silverware & jewelry that were so common then. Most everything was hand cut and engravers of every sort were quite a large trade both in Europe and here. Many also doubled their talents in the arms engraving trade. The very light touch of the copper plate printers engravers can be seen in the light steel engravings on the English guns. Very little hammer work if any at all. As all ready stated, these engravers took in work were ever they could get it. Even the 'big' names in the gun engravers trade in those times advertised as sign, print and jewelery engravers. The Hilfrichts(sp) immediately come to mind. Signing ones work in that time period was not considered the thing to do, so rarely will you see a name on them. Kornbrath, Nimschke, Gough and a few others realized the value of self promotion and used it to their advantage. Some hid their initials in their work only to be forgotten or left for others to try to figure out who they were years later. Much of the custom work from that period was done in Europe as the custom makers here had links to the old country themselves and had engravers there to do extensive jobs for them on their works. US home grown engravers really didn't start to appear and get noticed in print till around WW2, though there are a few exceptions. Before that, those that worked here and got the most notice were for the most part immigrants from Europe.

Elliot briefly mentions Jacob Glahn and possibly his sons; A.E. Spangler and perhaps his brother Wilton; L. Delunsch; R.A. Arthur; possibly Frank Mason and sons Roy and Max; and R. Kornbrath

The following is from the 1887-88 Syracuse city directory. This was a period when Lefever had approximately 80 employees. Please note, that most of these men were living in boarding houses. Their addresses often changed yearly.

The Syracuse directory, which sometimes contains occupation shows approximately 20 engravers from year to year in the late 1880's. Hard to imagine they were all employeed by Lefever.

Jacob Glahn shows a business address, which may not be the Lefever factory, but I am not 100% on that.

Jacob Glahn
Business Address: 110 south Clinton
Home Address: Kennedy n. south Onondaga

Augustus Glahn
Home Address: boards Kennedy n. south Onondaga

George J. Glahn
Home Address: Cortland avenue. n. W. Castle

Theodore Glahn
Home Address: 188 Lodi

Milton C. Spangler
Home Address: boards 113 Townsend

Albert E. Spangler
Home Address: 415 Prospect avenue

Pete

In Europe, the situation may have been different. difficult to tell. I have turn of the century Darne with Bulino style engraving of dogs and birds that is signed "Antonini" certainly not a French name. I wonder if he dio any other guns? Regards, Dr. Dozier sends

I don't know what kind of arrangement William H. Gough had while he was the engraving contractor for Parker Bros., but while he headed the engraving department at the A.H. Fox Gun Co. he did a lot of independent work for Colt and Winchester. After the buyout by Savage and the move to Utica, Savage Arms Corp. was not as agreeable to this in-house outside work so Gough had his own quarters in the Gardner Block in Utica from 1937 to 1952 and later in the McLoughlin Building where he and his staff of up to 20 employees plied their trade. He must have done some outside work while at the Brothers P. as there are high grade Hollenbecks and Meriden/Aubreys that are known to be Gough engraved.

Just a couple of pics that might be worth considering on this topic?

The top 2 are Ithaca, 1911 and 1915...the one most resembling a flying turnip is the 1911.





The following are 2 Lefevers, rabbit's f grade he posted on another thread....date? And one I sniped on the web, date unknown.





Any chance the same person did any two of them? Would be hard to imagine the different companies would spec the same patterns? Would seem more likely they got what was offered by a certain engraver or shop?

Just thought the likeness was remarkable, so I remarked!

Best,
Mark

Larger versions here http://www.flickr.com/photos/61687148@N00/ if needed.