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Forums10
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Apr 29th, 2024
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 972 Likes: 10
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 972 Likes: 10 |
Jim,
I'm living some 100 Kilometers away from Lige and what I have on my agenda, is a visit to the Muse d'armes.. So, perhaps you can give me your questions, but no more than 3.!!! I'll try to (let them) answer. :-))
On the other hand, it could be useful to learn some french, because there are several excellent books published about the Lige gunmaking, for example by Claude Gaier!
Gunwolf
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 297 Likes: 3
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 297 Likes: 3 |
It is useless to present text or questions to the Lige Arms Museum when they are not in French language, they never give you an answer. Peter Mikalajunas know about what I speak we visited the museum together when he visited me in Belgium.
Marc.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,378 Likes: 105
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,378 Likes: 105 |
Time to get together a fund to pay my expenses? I'll go! Right now, Belgium has to be nicer than northern WI.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,378 Likes: 105
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,378 Likes: 105 |
Mr. Brown:
I understand you point and possibly at some juncture with supporting evidence like a ledger, names of tube makers, etc. I could stomach that V-C made all their own tubes but even though they now make everything inhouse, much like Beretta now who sourced prior to WWII, it doesn't support that they did not source their tubes inland or abroad. I'm sure Holtzer was a staple for bar stock, but was every V-C fitted with Holtzer steel tubes or were some sourced? You have Rigby wearing German steel( F. Asoethwer/Asthwer/Asthowever/Ashtrmer( Gussstahlwerkes Fritz Asthwer & Co. ) & Company(Annen Steel Works), Crucible Cast steel works, Annen, Westphalia or later Krupp Steel Works ) and I assume others also sourced Germany pre-WWI. It was at this point in time that sourcing lines dried up and just like the makers in the U.S. of A. inland sources became the staple. For sure more info has to be obtained here. But I'm very confident, in fact almost so that you could take it to the bank unless someone else provides any info otherwise, that Whitworth and Heinrich Ehrhardt, with their novel steel cavity patents for hollow steel cylinders, did peddle tubes in the rough. I'd say almost all other steel concerns peddled bar steel to the tube maker who wailed on the bar stock to transform it into the tube state.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse Raimey, if you had the 1922 catalog, you would know that not all V-C's were tubed with Holtzer. (You can get it from Cornell Publications.) They refer in specific to 4 different qualities of steel used in their better guns. Lowest is acier diamant. The next 3 are all different qualities of Holtzer steel. And they use less expensive steel in their lower grade guns. The only steel specifically identified by source is Holtzer. Otherwise, you have the usual stuff you find on French guns: "acier de surete"; "acier de qualite special"; "acier au creuset comprime"; etc. I know you look on catalogs as basically so much advertising, but I find the V-C catalogs to go out of their way when it comes to honesty. For example, in 1999, V-C listed two sxs models in its catalog. But even though those guns are marked "Verney-Carron", the catalog copy makes it quite clear that they are made for V-C "in the European Union". (The less expensive looks Spanish to me; the more expensive looks very Merkel-ish.) So no attempt to hide the outside origin of those guns--while giving them the same guarantee as those made by V-C.
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,785 Likes: 185
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,785 Likes: 185 |
 Yes, I have seen most of the French Advertising  1915 Krupp Advert for Thomas Prosser & Son, 26 Platt Street, NY  Interesting 1915 Vulcan Crucible Steel Advert that caught my eye Kind Regards, Raimey rse
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,785 Likes: 185
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,785 Likes: 185 |
And some of you Purdey owners may just have an example that wears German Stahl also: "The only break in this Whitworth tradition was in 1898, when the steel workers went on strike. Between July and December of that year Purdey's had to go to Krupp for barrels and made eighty-three guns with their tubes." http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=354713#Post354713Purdey, Rigby, who's next, hold your hand high to be counted? Kind Regards, Raimey rse
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,598
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,598 |
It is useless to present text or questions to the Lige Arms Museum when they are not in French language, they never give you an answer. Peter Mikalajunas know about what I speak we visited the museum together when he visited me in Belgium.
Marc. This is true. Even if the question is in French, do not expect an answer from them. I tried to maintain an email conversation with them. Apparently, they just were not interested. Pete
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,468
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,468 |
Whitworth's biggest customer was LC Smith. They decided to slow down their shipping to them then raised their prices. In came Krupp on a white stallion with better barrels for a better than original price. LC Smith used that opportunity to force Whitworth to LOWER the barrel cost from their ORIGINAL price. Ah, American business sense. The Obamination would be shocked!
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,785 Likes: 185
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,785 Likes: 185 |
I don't doubt you one iota, but I'm curious as to the actual number. I would have thought it to be Kilby or someone inland. Thus far, it appears that tubes of Antinit, Antikorro, Krupp 3 Ringe, Whitworth, Witten Excelsior & possibly others all came in tubesets. I wonder if this is how L.C. Smith received the Whitworth variety.. But the main reason that Krupp steel tubes were cheaper is that either the Germans were having them rolled in Liege or the Liege makers were rolling them on their own. Pre-WWI, I'd say the bulk of run of the mill Krupp steel tubes originated in Liege.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,378 Likes: 105
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,378 Likes: 105 |
Krupp was likely too busy making artillery tubes for the Kaiser's army.
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