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Originally Posted By: dubbletrubble
I didn't mean to start a fight here by any means. Could I replace the short action slide with a later long slide?
You didn't- and if you want to send the the forearm/barrel assembly (No FFL or C&R required)and the new replacement forearm, I will fit it for you for a small charge- and yes, I have the special spanner wrench required. I did this many times on GI issued M12 and M97 riot and guard shotguns while I served as a Master Armorer in the USMC- and as NCOIC of the base trap and skeet armory, also on some trap and skeet issued Model 12's--

Now, as to the other gent who did the "heat and beat" shank bending "technique"?? First off, I went ot my WRA Library- the WRA 1938 Salesman's Catalog- page 16 shows two clear views of the shank, receiver rear boss, and the bottomed in place tip of the threaded stock mounting bolt- not scaled or dimensioned, but to anyone with half the machine shop experience I like to think I have accumulated in 60 odd years-and still going-- we are talking about cylindrical threaded components here- you do an "Ed Da Torch" on the internally threaded shank while in place into the mating receiver boss- which also provides a threaded lower boss for the rear trigger guard set screw as well- and you get the ID and the thread "out of round" and you have a Fubar and a possible: improper fit, that will allow the stock to loosen over time and recoil of firing the shotgun- plus a "BFH forced fit" which means some day down the road, another soul may wish to remove the buttstock and will be faced with jammed or seized threads as a result of this screw-up-- The only proper and safe way is to remove the shank from the receiver boss, and insert the threaded end of either the existing stock mounting bolt, or as I do- I have a piece of 12L14 Screw machine stock with a threaded end to match the pitch and TPI of the original- as a "slave pin" or "dummy bolt". Then you can clamp the receiver facing end of the shank in a padded bench vise, apply slow and spreading heat (move the propane torch around carefully to get a dull heat sheen, add an "eye-ball" bend- let air cool- refit, and repeat if needed- until you have the new angle needed for the refit and change in either drop or cast (on or off from TDC line of the stock comb--

I disagree with the "Wonderkind expert" from the Land of Mary, who advised you to clamp the receiver into your vise and "have at it-- even with a padded vise, you can still mar a M12 receiver- and I saw it done by a similar numbnut- to a Pigeon Grade Trapgun with fancy wood and John Kusmit engraving- The other reason for isolating the shank from the receiver has to do with simple physics- and force and kinetics I should guess-with the receiver clamped into a bench vise and the shank in place, it is too tempting to try to make the "change" in one pass- and when you get in a hurry you make Fubars--

The Madis book- The Model 12-- page 83--quote: "Changes in dimensions of stocks were offered to raise or lower the drop or to provide an offset -------To bend shanks and offset a stock to the right or left, or up or down, ran from $5.00 to $10.00, again depending on the time of manufacture----"!

In a previous posting here about my beloved Model 12's- Old Eight-Baller may have made a negative comment about George Madis' expertise, alluding to some potential errors in this great book (actually, to give the Devil his due- there is one- but it is a typo, and not pertinent to the vast amount of accurate detail about the great Model 12- and Madis worked for WRA for over 30 years- if he were at my shoulder now, and told me the WRA used Scott instead of Charmin bungwipe in the employee's restrooms, I would believe him 100%--and so should you!!


When The Man In Black Comes Around- Rev: 6-8
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Originally Posted By: Kutter
I've bent a lot of M12 tang/shank,,what ever you want to call it,, to adjust the drop on them. I heat the shank up close to the rec'vr with an acetylene torch heat to red. Grab it with a plier & bend it. They bend easy.
Quick heat,,not so close to the rec'vr that you damage the blue on it.
It doesn't take a whole lot of adjustment of the shank to change the drop at the heal a bunch.

Then you have to re-inlet the stock to rec'vr inletting a touch when done as the top will hit before the bottom edge.
Not a big deal. The entire process takes about 30 minutes if you're tired.
M97's alter easily too.
I've never bent one w/o using heat. Just didn't seem like an easy thing to do.

The shank is a separate piece threaded into the receiver but still a stout one. Threaded into a reinforcement of sorts on the back of the M12. But straight into the back wall of the rcv'r on the 97.

You are putting a tiny bend in the shank itself this way,,the forward end of it that's threaded into the rec'vr doesn't move anywhere.
Make sure the shank is tightly threaded into the rcv'r before you begin or the heat can leave you with a wobbly, slightly loose,,but still usable stock mounting shank when you're done

A far as the forend is concerned,,seems like there was a short length forend slide for a few years pre WW2 offered on a Skeetgun or something like that. I had a 16ga in once w/one on but don't recall much more about it than that.
"Ho Lee Chit"-- an oxy-acetylene torch produces a temp. 0f 6000 degrees Fahreneheit at the tip of the neutral flame cone- no matter the style ( welding/brazing tip, cutting tip or a Rosebud tip) and also the pressure of both the fuelgas and oxygen-- and I though that the "Ed Da Torch" was the only idiot with a "Blue Flame wrench" in his toolkit-keep that 6000 degrees away from anything except something you wish to cut is my advise, as a welder with many many years working in the trade--you'll turn that shank into high strength salt water taffy!!in a friggin' heartbeat_

Last edited by Run With The Fox; 03/06/14 04:41 PM.

When The Man In Black Comes Around- Rev: 6-8
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well I picked up a 7" tube action slide today on evilbay. I can fit it, but thank you for your generous offer. I'm thinking about just ordering a new shank from a supplier and working from there. I'll keep you all posted and thanks to all for saving this job for me.

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Getting it red hot in a hurry is the idea so you don't damage the bluing on the frame.
Yes it bends easily when red,,steel does that,, and that's also the idea. No chance of the recv'r slipping in the vise by putting a lot of un-necessary pressure on the shank trying to bend it cold. A #2 tip works well. Works good for welding in markings /lettering.

"...we are talking about cylindrical threaded components here..."
Why yes we are imagine that,, and to think we heated to red about 1/2" or less of the length of that piece of threaded (on each end) round stock that's slightly bigger in dia than a common pencil ,, and then bent it a couple degrees.
Wow, Panic Alert,, call Engineering Dept before proceeding.
You can make a big project out of it,,or not.
No damage to to gun, or componet parts during the fix or later. I saw many of those guns later as they returned for strip downs & cleanings.

You can just as well give the shank a wack or two with a heavy hammer over a solid support to bend it cold while in place. Most probably what the factory did, but there's the chance the end threaded into the frame will bend and/or loosen on you doing it like that. Not having replacements at hand makes the hot bend a better choice for the parts starved.

It's not a big deal. I've probably done 30 to 40 of them in the last 40+ yrs between 12's and 97's. Even a couple 42's.
I learned it from other gunsmith(s) who learned it somewhere else,,,

If you can't heat that stock shank up to red w/o melting it in half, don't play w/the torch.
No I don't have any certification in anything that I can think of.

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FWIW, years ago I had a 1913 20ga Model of 1912 fitted with wood from a newer gun and it required a new action slide and ring, but the wood fit fine after we got the right parts.

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Originally Posted By: Kutter

No I don't have any certification in anything that I can think of.


Not having any certification can be a good thing as there are types of "certifications" you really don't want to have.

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Originally Posted By: Kutter
Getting it red hot in a hurry is the idea so you don't damage the bluing on the frame.
Yes it bends easily when red,,steel does that,, and that's also the idea. No chance of the recv'r slipping in the vise by putting a lot of un-necessary pressure on the shank trying to bend it cold. A #2 tip works well. Works good for welding in markings /lettering.

"...we are talking about cylindrical threaded components here..."
Why yes we are imagine that,, and to think we heated to red about 1/2" or less of the length of that piece of threaded (on each end) round stock that's slightly bigger in dia than a common pencil ,, and then bent it a couple degrees.
Wow, Panic Alert,, call Engineering Dept before proceeding.
You can make a big project out of it,,or not.
No damage to to gun, or componet parts during the fix or later. I saw many of those guns later as they returned for strip downs & cleanings.

You can just as well give the shank a wack or two with a heavy hammer over a solid support to bend it cold while in place. Most probably what the factory did, but there's the chance the end threaded into the frame will bend and/or loosen on you doing it like that. Not having replacements at hand makes the hot bend a better choice for the parts starved.

It's not a big deal. I've probably done 30 to 40 of them in the last 40+ yrs between 12's and 97's. Even a couple 42's.
I learned it from other gunsmith(s) who learned it somewhere else,,,

If you can't heat that stock shank up to red w/o melting it in half, don't play w/the torch.
No I don't have any certification in anything that I can think of.
The best way to preserve the "bluing on the frame" as you said- assuming that you really mean the receiver here, the proper term for the Model 12 repeater (and the Model 21 double gun as well) is to first remove the shank, as I always have done--yes, be careful with whatever heat source you use, whether an oxygen fueled torch (make mine a Victor please) or propane units sold at Hardware stores all over America- Turner is my preference here-

Best way, IMO anyway-- is to pack the shank with the "slave pin threaded bolt" inserted into heated charcoal, wrapped in heavy asbestos sacking, that way you get even heat input into a cylindrical (sorry if that is too technical a term here) so let's say "pipe" as that is what the shank is, albeit a tapered OD shape--instead of the spot heat application from a torch tip, even moving as is the proper technique.

As to the often abused term: "certified" I knew a few dudes who said they were "Certified" welders- BS- they worked in a production Fabrication factory welding with MIG (Metallic Inert Gas) aka- 'wire welding" in the 1G position with the metal sections to be thus welded together clamped in a jig or fixture-

Any Willie off the pickle boat that can law down a bead of caulk from a caulking gun in the down-hand position can become a "certified 1G position MIG welder)- assuming someone with the right welding op. background sets the wire feed speed (amperage or "heat" for him) as well as the OCV- open circuit voltage- affects the shape of the weld bead as deposited in the joint- along with the wire AWS rating, diameter, coating and shielding gas delivery pressure, flow and admixture- if not a straight 100% as delivered shielding gas--

Last edited by Run With The Fox; 03/07/14 09:36 AM.

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Frame,,rec'vr,,you got it. That big part.,,the action w/o the parts.

Your method to bend the shank sounds OkeyDokey. A lot of fussing, but have at it.
Doing it that way, I'd mark the shank for 12 o'clock and back the new upward bend up to 11 or so.
When you put it back in the frame it'll tighten in a bit further than the original.
Unless you want some RH cast off too along with less drop.
If the bend isn't enough,,or too much, take it back out and do it over again & hope that it screws back in w/o over clocking again.
..or just heat it red in a small area back from the frame so you don't damage the bluing and bend it up w/a pliers.


Allow for some extra stock re-inletting if you go for the cast off and to be truthfull it doesn't look very good done this way (cast off/cast on).
But you can do a very tiny amt and get away with it w/most factory fitted stocks.
Better to restock and make the cast adjustment starting at about the nose in the new stock so it doesn't look awkward at the frame/stock juncture.




I don't have a MIG,,don't know Willie.
I did fine w/a TIG when I had access to one to use in my work. An ancient machine of it's time but was all new to me.

Teach yourself as you stepped off that pickleboat was the learning method.
No one showed you (much of) anything in the gun trades for fear of loosing their job to you. 'Figure it out yourself kid'.
A few kind souls would be helpful, but they were a very few.

I get along w/ small tank acetylene set just fine now. Heat when needed like the above small jobs or small welding like filling pits or lettering & small alterations, restorations ect.
I use it all the time for hardsoldering too.

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I just give the shank a little bump and put the stock on to try for fit. If it isn't in position yet, I give it another bump. I don't need to abuse my fellow posters to get that done. Crazy or abusive people have no place on this site. We are here to help, not to spout off.

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Originally Posted By: eightbore
I just give the shank a little bump and put the stock on to try for fit. If it isn't in position yet, I give it another bump. I don't need to abuse my fellow posters to get that done. Crazy or abusive people have no place on this site. We are here to help, not to spout off.
Hey, WTF- Murphy- you do it your way, it's your Model 12 (the one maybe you may well have bought on E-Bay for $500 a few years ago now) and I'll do it the both the WRA custom shop guys did back in the day- and also the way I was taught at USMC advanced Armorer's School in Quantico, VA-- slow and controlled heat input, and just as important, slow and controlled cooling or, air quenching if you prefer that term.

The fact that the original poster was strongly considering sending the forearm and barrel and magazine group (No Receiver) to me for my fitting up speaks volumes, at least to me, and the offer is still open should that gentleman wish to pursue that avenue of approach.

As far as abusive, you set the standard for that when you far abused your position as both a Lifer and a Time In Grade member of the Perpetual Goofballers Consternation Amalgamation and had me banned- petty and childish, IMO- and such acts by Plicks such as yourself cannot add to the increase in paid memberships such smallish and closed interest groups such as the afore-mentioned one need to grow and survive in a ever-growing anti-gun culture America is becoming today.

As an Life membership in your "Carriage Bolted DoubleGunGruppen" is $500- I'll wager you that sum in cash that
you can't get me banned from this Forumsite- Dave Weber is way too far a fair minded person to entertain such pettifoggin'- I'll ever double that to an even 1K if you can not only do that here, but also get me banned from the AH Fox Collectors, where I occasionally as a Forum only (at least for now) member, under the sobriquet of "Germantown"-- I say "for now" as I am considering becoming an annual paid member, so I can post AH Fox gun parts for sale, from time to time.

Whenever a member here posts a question about gun related items or machine shop/welding processes that I feel I am qualified to contribute, I will do so- and that most certainly includes some (but not all) pre-1964 Winchesters, mainly Model 12's and Model 70's= and not all (electric resistance production "spot welding" is NOT in my field of expertise)welding and basic welding related questions of metallurgy-- Your may be "De Kingfish" elsewhere, and I will grant that your long-time research and attention to detail regarding the "America's Finest Shotgun" has, no doubt, enhanced the aura of the Brothers Parker and their first-rate shotguns- but as far as your ability to tolerate others who may choose to disagree with you, there I shall find you lacking indeed, Sir!!


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