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3 members (Guy Ave, SKB, 1 invisible),
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Apr 29th, 2024
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Joined: Mar 2005
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2005
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This one's a keeper. Nice work guys.
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,880 Likes: 16
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,880 Likes: 16 |
Just communicated with Adam at METL. No word yet on the Failure Analysis.
He thinks they can test tensile strength on a segment of barrel and I'll likely have him do that on the two barrels I have that can be destroyed. Drew the tensile strength test should be a "hoop" tensile test to be valuable for this analysis. Damascus is likely to be stronger in hoop strength due to the way its made
Last edited by Chuck H; 02/19/14 02:06 AM.
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,468
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,468 |
A large variety of steels are available today. Each has advantages and disadvantages. Some steels at the high end of strength... say 180,000 psi can be hardened up to over 300,000 psi but they become more brittle and have much more notch sensitivity. This means a sharp interior edge is much more prone to cracking. It also significantly reduces fatigue life. So a cyclic load or eccentric load significantly reduces life. Stainless steel tends to gall if in contact with moving parts made out of the same stainless steel so different types of stainless are best used in these cases. Stainless also have a higher coefficient of thermal expansion which was forgotten by S&W when they first came out with the Mod 66 K frame revolver. The LAPD had some of these guns freeze up when fired with +P loads rapid fire. For a time, the LAPD forbade the use of ANY S&W until S&W changes the design to open up some tolerances.
Strength of materials is an interesting subject. The first shotguns with modern high strength steel were the Win 21 and Browning Superposed which came out about 1930/31.
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,880 Likes: 16
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,880 Likes: 16 |
The data Drew posted seems to counter the common lore that the Winchester M12 was the first guns to use "modern steel". Maybe for the frame. But barrels were being made of alloyed steels of around 100,000 psi from about the turn of the century. These steels were proprietary alloys that were closely protected. But industrial espionage was a reality even then. Decades later, it would take a war and government intervention to drive standardization in the manufacturing of engineering materials and processes so that you can now say " I want this made with 4140, 1018, etc..". At least in the USA.
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,427 Likes: 315
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,427 Likes: 315 |
Nothing new under the sun brother
Guns for the Sultan: Military Power and the Weapons Industry in the Ottoman Empire
"Between the fifteenth and seventeenth centuries, direct military conflicts, the employment of European military experts and, to a lesser degree, illegal trade in weaponry ensured relatively easy dissemination of up-to-date technologies and military know-how in the Sultan’s realms. Istanbul was more than a simple recipient of foreign technologies with its Turkish and Persian artisans and blacksmiths, Armenian and Greek miners and sappers, Turkish, Bosnian, Serbian, Hungarian, Italian, German, and later French, English and Dutch foundrymen and military engineers…(all) adding to their expertise metallurgy techniques of the Islamic East..."
1567 – Philip II of Spain invades the Low Countries, led by the Duke of Alva. Reformer monks Esch and Voes are burned at the stake in Brussels, and de Bras and Peregrine la Grange were hung in Valenciennes.
1566-1688 – Walloon (Belgium) and Huguenot (France) migration to Netherlands, Sweden, Denmark, Russia, South Africa, Germany, Ireland, Scotland, England, West Indies, South and North America taking their metallurgic knowledge with them.
1600 - 400 French and Walloon mercenaries of the Pope’s garrison offer their services to the Ottomans.
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,158 Likes: 114
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 8,158 Likes: 114 |
Nothing new under the sun brother
Guns for the Sultan: Military Power and the Weapons Industry in the Ottoman Empire
"Between the fifteenth and seventeenth centuries, direct military conflicts, the employment of European military experts and, to a lesser degree, illegal trade in weaponry ensured relatively easy dissemination of up-to-date technologies and military know-how in the Sultan’s realms. Istanbul was more than a simple recipient of foreign technologies with its Turkish and Persian artisans and blacksmiths, Armenian and Greek miners and sappers, Turkish, Bosnian, Serbian, Hungarian, Italian, German, and later French, English and Dutch foundrymen and military engineers…(all) adding to their expertise metallurgy techniques of the Islamic East..."
1567 – Philip II of Spain invades the Low Countries, led by the Duke of Alva. Reformer monks Esch and Voes are burned at the stake in Brussels, and de Bras and Peregrine la Grange were hung in Valenciennes.
1566-1688 – Walloon (Belgium) and Huguenot (France) migration to Netherlands, Sweden, Denmark, Russia, South Africa, Germany, Ireland, Scotland, England, West Indies, South and North America taking their metallurgic knowledge with them.
1600 - 400 French and Walloon mercenaries of the Pope’s garrison offer their services to the Ottomans.
And the Prussian High Command rules against German Krupp Flustahl in their cannon and field artillery pieces, from about 1880 up to 1914, preferring bronze or brass alloys instead- go figure that one.
"The field is the touchstone of the man"..
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,379 Likes: 105
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,379 Likes: 105 |
Nothing new under the sun brother
Guns for the Sultan: Military Power and the Weapons Industry in the Ottoman Empire
"Between the fifteenth and seventeenth centuries, direct military conflicts, the employment of European military experts and, to a lesser degree, illegal trade in weaponry ensured relatively easy dissemination of up-to-date technologies and military know-how in the Sultan’s realms. Istanbul was more than a simple recipient of foreign technologies with its Turkish and Persian artisans and blacksmiths, Armenian and Greek miners and sappers, Turkish, Bosnian, Serbian, Hungarian, Italian, German, and later French, English and Dutch foundrymen and military engineers…(all) adding to their expertise metallurgy techniques of the Islamic East..."
1567 – Philip II of Spain invades the Low Countries, led by the Duke of Alva. Reformer monks Esch and Voes are burned at the stake in Brussels, and de Bras and Peregrine la Grange were hung in Valenciennes.
1566-1688 – Walloon (Belgium) and Huguenot (France) migration to Netherlands, Sweden, Denmark, Russia, South Africa, Germany, Ireland, Scotland, England, West Indies, South and North America taking their metallurgic knowledge with them.
1600 - 400 French and Walloon mercenaries of the Pope’s garrison offer their services to the Ottomans.
Drew--Christian soldiers were the shock troops of the Ottoman Empire for a very long time. Google Janissary.
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 277 Likes: 4
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 277 Likes: 4 |
Gun companies got their steel from steel mills, I don't know of any gun company that smelted their own steel. The major suppliers for Winchester's barrel steel were the Midvale Steel Co and the Crucible Steel Co. Looking at the old steel catalogues, they had no issues listing the make-up of the steels.
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 704 Likes: 1
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 704 Likes: 1 |
Any thoughts on the strength of Whitworth steel barrels from 1930?
Thanks!
Last edited by 1cdog; 02/23/14 06:09 PM.
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,427 Likes: 315
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,427 Likes: 315 |
Spoke again to METL about tensile strength testing. They need 4" of the muzzle end but without choke (to save on machining cost), so unless already cut probably 6". If anyone has whacked off barrel ends, I'd like to test both pattern welded and fluid steel. It would save $ just to send what I need, but I'll want to document the maker and rough DOM.
Depending on the amount of machining time to prepare the specimen, the cost will be $50-$70.
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