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Joined: Dec 2002
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What has puzzled me is how that many people, in a room with one gunman would not make any attempt to rush the guy. Yes, one or more may have been seriously injured or killed, but they would have at least been able to stop this guy sooner and possibly have saved lives. Just think of what may have happened if those on Flight 93 remained seated instead of acting with great bravery.

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Originally Posted By: Bob Blair
Originally Posted By: Ozpa
Originally Posted By: ben-t
I might be wrong, but if he had been legally determined to be mentally unstable it would have shown up during the instant background check.


I believe you are wrong, there is no method that I know of for reporting this in a manner that NICS can use.

I for one see the horrible failures in our mental health-care system on regular basis. As a defense attorney and prosecutor I've come to the conclusion that MUCH of the drug abuse in our rural county is related to self-medication. I've dealt many times with people suffering from major depression, bi-polar disorder, and schizophrenia. I believe that most of them abused street drugs and alcohol in order to deal with their symptoms...one of the more disturbing was the schizophrenic that told me he drank because it quieted the voices.

Generally I believe that there are no gun laws that can or should be enacted at this point to make us safer, with the caveat that any person committed voluntarily or involuntarily for mental health issues is not (apparently) reported on NICS.

The gun grabbers will be yelling for our guns following this. We need to be the ones that the public views as having common sense and a reasonable approach to these issues. We need to make this a fight of logic, and not of emotion.

Todd


Your physician may know that you are as crazy as a bed bug and not be able to report it because of HIPAA privacy rules. Probably doesn't apply if he thinks you are a menace and a danger to society but that's a tough call and he may be betting his licsense to practice on it. Health care privacy and the NICS check are in direct contradiction in many cases.

EDIT: Well.....this is incredible. The guy was apparently ruled mentally ill by a court. This should have showed up on the NICS check. Wonder what the problem is and why it hasn't been corrected. If we are going to submit to a check , it should actually mean something. See link.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/print?id=3052278


I know it runs afoul of H.I.P.P.A. So what, HIPPA is just a "law". It is not a constitutional ammendment. In fact, until a few short years ago we got along just fine (actually better, IMO) without it. Write an exception to HIPPA and leave the guns alone.

Todd


Youth is stolen by Wisdom.
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Originally Posted By: ben-t
Ozpa/Todd,

I am taking your last comments as though they were directed to me and to them I reply: look again at the news coverage displaying hundreds of armed police officers huddle behind car doors and trees as the students and faculty are murdered. Then ask the question, were any of them taking fire? Then asks your self, if my son or daughter was inside that building, what emotions should arise? Had you been there, what would have been your instincts even if you were unarmed? I stand by what I have said. Those who would disarm us use the fear emotion(of law abiding gun owners) to justify themselves. We are certainly more justified in our fear of insane criminals, complacent politicians and timid police officials.

They are adept at ignoring us now, but just wait till they get a chance to treat the otherwise law abiding as criminals because we own guns. Then you bet they'll spring into action!

Kurt


No, they weren't really directed at you. I meant no offense and agreed with you with the only difference of opinion being on the medical reporting to NICS.

I've actually been through some of the training given to the police on how to conduct a raid in the event of a school shooting situation. I'd guess that the proper procedure (this is a guess) is for those officers who first arrived to put together an entry team, perhaps 2 teams. The remaining officers would be maintaining the perimeter, ensuring nobody else went in, and anyone exiting would be accounted for, either as a victim or as the shooter.

I can't fully imagine what my emotions would be if my son were in there. I doubt anyone could. If I were in there I hope that I'd have the courage to do the most good possible, whether that was by attacking the shooter or assisting others in escape, as did the Holocaust survivor.

Todd


Youth is stolen by Wisdom.
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You'll have to rethink your tactics.
Getting to the shooter is the only thing that counts.
God, I hope I never have to depend on these guys.
They're all show, and no go!


Last edited by Lowell Glenthorne; 04/19/07 06:32 PM.
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Originally Posted By: Steve Lawson
What has puzzled me is how that many people, in a room with one gunman would not make any attempt to rush the guy. Yes, one or more may have been seriously injured or killed, but they would have at least been able to stop this guy sooner and possibly have saved lives. Just think of what may have happened if those on Flight 93 remained seated instead of acting with great bravery.

Exactly what i was thinking..I dont know about you guys, but I always at least have a clip knife on me, I would rather die trying then waiting for the end.. The folks of flight 93 tried, yes they perished, but how many did they save.?

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Were all such real men here, monday morning quarterbacking a tragedy and what we'd do....give me a break.

Given the fact that complete surprise and over whelming firepower works on the battle field, imagine the effect on kids in a morning language class.

And, under the circumstances even curious comments about what happened in the rooms comes out as criticism, which is completely inappropriate at this point.

Cut them all some slack and put a sock in it.


Jeff
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Jeff, that sums it up nicely. Thanks for cutting through the BS.

Brent


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Oh, how I wish I was better with words but here goes anyway. These were children. They may have been in the 20's with some a little older. The older teachers died tring to save others. They did what they could do. The young have no experience to draw from to help them make bold sacrifices. Society doesn't teach children that to die for another is noble. No one in the academic community was prpared for such an evil deed. Those on Flight 93 only raised up when they realized that two other planes had crashed into buildings. They were not children and even they had to learn from two other events. I'm sure every one has learned something from this tragic event. Let us hope it is enough to see each us through the next tragic event.
Ron

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