doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com French Shotguns: A Call for Information

I have always found French firearms very interesting. I purchased a French shotgun several months ago and would like to see what information anyone has regarding French shotguns and invite anyone who shares this interest or who owns a French shotgun join in the discussion. Please post photos of your guns and share or seek information about your shotgun. As long as the shotgun is French please consider nothing off topic here!

I'll get the ball rolling with what will most likely win the award for lowest grade (sans-culottes for you Francophiles) shotgun under discussion. The 16ga shotgun pictured below was manufactured by MAC (Manufacture de Armes Chatterault ). I believe this to be a government owned arsenal, more famous for the manufacture of machine guns than for manufacture of sporting weapons. It appears to be a rather standard A&D box lock with a few twists (it does have the third lock up on the extended rib and some side screws over the pin that are prone to shooting lose). Previous responses I have obtained indicated that the Paris proof was rather unusual for a sporting arm and that this shotgun was “double proofed”.

In addition to the MAC manufacture, the prominent serial number on the butt stock would appear consistent with government issue as is the total lack of adornment (I have seen other French shotguns with serial numbers on the butt stock). The shotgun is very light, however, the construction very robust (save for the firing pin that broke on my example) and the trigger pulls are rather heavy. The overall appearance of the shotgun leads me to believe it is of pre-war vintage and may have been a war prize, however, I would not be overly surprised to learn it was made later.

Any information anyone has on this particular shotgun, year of manufacture, use and etc. would be most welcome and anyone seeking or having information, including photos of any (or all) of their French shotguns would likewise be most welcome.

This one never known to wear pants either.

jack

Jack-

Really interesting and far fancier than the MAC, I'd say yours "wore pants" (at least compared to the MAC)! I'd love to see a close up of the action, it looks very unusual around the top lever. How old is it?

Doug

PS I am guessing post war, maybe 1960s or so given the 70mm chambers.

From what Ted Schefelbein has said in the past (I didn't request documentation or an affidavit), your extrapolation of DOM from chamber lgth is likely correct give or take a decade and probably made by Fusil Darne rather than the defunct Charlin. The "beach" photo of the fat lady's heel and toe doesn't really show the sliding breech or toggle lever very well and was taken only to call attention to the "recurve" in the comb.

jack

The star marks are not Charlin, they used a rabbit and their guns were not triple proofed. I say that advisedly as mine and two others I have examined are only single proofed and have 65mm chambers. I am surmising this as the info on Charlin pre Darne is almost nil. Regards, Dr. Dozier sends

I am ready to load the MAC catalog and photos, the problem is, the photo hosting servers are jammed with heavy traffic at the moment. For whatever it's worth, I have owned several doubles and seen many more with the same arsenal type numbers stamped into the stock. About 1985, I bought a Belgian Vendrix and a German Griefelt boxlock that both had arsenal numbers, the dealer [Ron Peterson], explained to me that many doubles were "Drafted" into the French military for use on guard duty and military police work. He had many to choose from, and I had no reason to doubt him. Based on what Ron Peterson told me, my guess is that the MAC shown above is pre-war, even though the catalog appears to be post-war...at least printed after '45...I don't read French, so the readers who do, will have to interpret for those of us who don't...Photobucket is still jammed

I miss the eponyms but am otherwise satisfied.

jack

The Star marks are most definitely Charlin, and, from time to time, Charlins turn up that are triple proofed-case in point.

Since Charlin was in business a good part of a century, under three owners that I can document (there may have been more) examination of three specimens doesn't really tell one much. I'd guess I've handled and photographed maybe 100, and will confess to rank amatuer status, nothing more.

I've seen the running bunnies (they are not mentioned in any of the catalogs I have on hand, all pre Darne, by the way) and a different code, using letters and numbers, that I've had no success in cracking. I owned one marked LC-1, (with stars) and never found out where it fit into the picture, other than it was a low grade gun. I've also seen a Charlin with a hollow, ventilated rib, a stainless steel Charlin, and a catalog of what can only be called "art deco", and "Celtic" engraved Charlins, which, I have (frustratingly) never seen an example of.

They tried hard, anyway. They still failed.

If someone was interested in documenting French civilian firearms, they are about 70 years and a world war too late.
It is possible that there are manufacturers that NO information exists about at this juncture, or, the information hasn't come to light. With the passing years, that light grows more dim. The Nazi occupation at St. Etienne was not a kind one, and much of the information that wasn't discarded by the occupiers was destroyed by the French resistance, in the hope of confusion.

When I was last in St. Etienne, I asked the Bruchets about 10 gauge Darnes-they had never heard of, worked on, or seen an example. I had seen two at that point. I asked about sliding breech guns built on the 1894 R patent, proofed in St. Etienne, and marked Abeille (means honeybee, I think) which I had brought photos of-never seen one. And, it didn't get much more than a shoulder shrug.

The gunmakers passion, in this case, is not guns, at least not those not of his own making. Further, their hobby's are not gun related, as in shooting or hunting. They didn't have an interest in the history, that I could tell.

Sorry, but, lots of times, the only evidence, is the gun in hand. Until such time that someone can scour every library, and sift through the remaining paperwork from long gone manufacturers, and interview anyone who is left, in France, that is likely the way it will stay. And, don't bother with the library in Lyon-they have almost nothing. I tried.

Best,
Ted

'Charlin AUTOMATIQUE' sounds frightening in a good kind of way! Where is crystal decanter full of Hennessy?

Bon jour, I'll start my contribution with my Halifax:





JC(AL)

JC-

Amazing, curious, and very French (i.e., atypical, artful and form over function in design). How in the dickens does that shotgun lock up? Does it eject? Would you be able to post a photo of the action open? Is the action the same as on Jack's?

Doug

Doug, it locks up like a veritable vault, :-)

Here is the action:


That slides here:


The extractors you see pull the spent shells out but don't actually "eject" them.

In principle it is the same concept as Jack's Charlin, but I am sure Ted will jump in to give details of the differences apart than the Charlin slides on bearings (if I am not mistaken).

Halifaxes are "sans-coulotte" Darnes, but mine is rather dressier than most.

JC(AL)

Doug, to the casual observer, the Darne and Charlin would appear to be the same "type" of action (sliding breech) just as the great majority of doubleguns would appear to the layman to be of the hinging barrel or breakopen type. Ted has explained previously that despite the bird's eye similarlities, the standing breech of the Darne is mechanically locked when closed; the Charlin is not "locked" but has an over-center cam in the toggle lever which makes it progressively resistant to opening under pressure of firing. There are bearing balls embedded in the "ways" upon which the sliding breech of the Charlin slides; omitted on the Darnes.

Anyone know who built/builds guns for Henry Huret, sporting goods retailer in Lille? Anyone know anything about Pirlot?

jack

Thanks Ted for shedding some light on the mysterious marks, stars, bunnies, etc. I knew that Charlin had several owners, In fact saw an actual stock certificate for Charlin several years ago somwwhere, maybe Ebay. The mystery continues and as you say probably will continues due to destruction of documents. Many German guns face the same fate. As a retired academic, I know the frustrations of attempting primary source research. It is tough sledding. Kindest regards, and again thanks Ted. Dr, Dozier sends

Ted, JC & Jack-

Thanks for the extra photos and details. Very interesting shotguns both and I bet they get a lot of admiring looks when you take them out! Any disadvantages to those actions, (they look extremely robust)? I hope you realize that you all are fueling gun lust.

Doug
Edit PS. I found a very pretty Darne Gran Bois 16ga circa 1930s, $1,750...if $ were not an issue right now... . If anyone is interested, I'll post the link. Sorry JC meant to thank you too!

More on these interesting shotguns...and from all places!

http://doublegunshop.com/darne.htm

Sorry, no MAC catalog tonight, what I thought was excessive traffic at Photobucket, is actually the Adelphia Time/Warner transformation. Adelphia users wont be able to sign onto servers like photobucket and Ebay for perhaps another day. sorry to make you wait. I could email them if someone else is willing to post the images...there is a total of 15 images standing by...

Robert-

Happy to wait or to help. I am away from home on business and my notebook software can read some images, but not others. If you would like to give it a try, feel free to e-mail them to me and provided my computer can pick them up, I'll post anything you like. DBADCraig@sbcglobal.net.

Thanks much-

Doug

OK dbad, I'm trying to send the attatchments to your email box, but the old adelphia server doesn't like that either. If it doesn't go through, thanks just the same, and I'll post 'em when this digital storm blows over. If it does go through and I see them posted, 1-8 of 15, I'll send you 9-15, just to get them posted sooner. Thanks again
Just one other important question, is there a limit on how many images I can post at the DoubleGun BBS? Is there a limit on how many images Photobucket will host before I have to delete other images or start paying for extra space? I know to keep the files as small as my camera allows, but beyond that, are there other limitations that I should be aware of?

Bob-

I have the images you sent, thanks a million--I don't speak French, so I don't know if they are in the correct order, but here they are:

Jack, I don't know anything about Huret, but being located in Lille, which is almost in Belgium, he might well have sold Belgian-made guns. Even though there was a very active French industry, a surprising number of Belgian guns show up with French addresses on the barrels.

Could Pirlot possibly be Pirlet? Seems I've seen that name in combination with Mode (as in Mode-Pirlet), with I think a Paris address. Mode, however, was another Belgian maker.

Yes, it is Pirlet, Larry. Sorry. Only seen one, in Florida. Bill Wise sent me off on a picture-taking mission on that one and stated later that he believed it was of Belgian manufacture.

jack

I also love French shotguns. I have a Charles Galand. I have never seen another one anywhere and have not been able to get any information on it. It is a pleasure to shoot. It was made in Paris. It is a 12 bore with 27" barrels. I would post better pictures but the gun is currently at the gunsmiths. My wife has a 16 bore Manufrance Robust. Also very nice and I am very envious of it. Though she will let me shoot it if I ask real nice.

Dave B

Robert- I hurriedly uploaded those attachments during a break, it seemed to work just fine. I don't know if there are limits here on posting, I sure hope not (on that and the other questions, I guess we'll need to see if a moderator has the answers). As far a my photobucket, I haven't had any indication there is a limit or if so that I am near my limit, so I am happy to help you with any of your posts in the event you find you continue to have problems.

I finally had a chance to go through the materials. Having had only one semester of French in college (many, many years ago), my understanding of French is essentially based on common words and those that have Latin roots I recognize. I did get the pages out of order. The catalogue does appear to describe "my" MAC, so may gun could very well be post war. I saw the reference to 1945 (after the victory) so the catalogue as you stated is post war. The specifications mention the triple lock (two lugs and the lever) the 65mm 16ga chambers and steel used in my gun. More compelling are the photos which appear mirror my MAC (which isn't to say that the gun was not a pre-war design).

Thanks so much for sharing your information, your keen eye and more importantly your ability associate your data. Amazing!

Doug

These guys have finally got there mugs on the WWW 60 yrs later

How about the Granger(?) anyone here ever shot or handled one of these shotguns??? Do they handle as good as an English 'Best' game gun?
All the best

Doug, I could probably put together the start of a French to English translation guide specifically geared toward double gun nomenclature. I don't know how much interest there is in such a specialized subject, but some of my catalogs are in French & English, and at least one or two have translation glossaries already in the back of the catalog. I could post half a dozen images to be saved, or better yet if someone else could distill the data down to one three page glossary to be posted on a new thread, I will add a pile of dual language shotgun descriptions (images), other readers will surely correct any misunderstandings as well as add to the glossary based on their knowledge and translation of the dual language images. By the time the thread has played out, the end glossary could remain on the useful info page. It might be worth a try, the worst that could happen is we could start a thread that garners no interest. It's a good deal for me...all I have to do submit the frame work and images, and we'll all get the final product. Well, it's just an idea...

Sounds like a good idea Robert, a better idea would be for you to put all of this great information of yours into book form!!!! What about it Mr. Chambers????
All the best

I did a short French to English gun term glossary in an article in Shooting Sportsman a few years back. (Used to teach French, high school and university.) I'm not interested in doing long translations, but I'm always glad to help if someone gets stuck. Sometimes, however, even a French dictionary is of no help unless you understand guns pretty well. For example, in French, sideclips are "wings". First time I saw that in a description of a French gun, it took me a bit of time to figure out what the heck they were talking about.

OK...here is the last installment of the MAC catalog...I will try to keep it all together next time I post a catalog...those factory photos are the best close ups I could get, sorry they're so grainy...
As for a book, I already have enough unpublished data compiled to publish a book on Western New York gunmakers, a book on tang sight identification, and a massive book on Belgian SxS makers. When it comes to French SxS makers, I am barely a contributor.
Mr. Brown, I am happy to hear that you think it's a possibility, rather than a lame idea. A translation glossary would certainly make my Belgian data more palatable.

In fact, I can't even identify some of my own Frenchies. The following is two 16ga project guns that I've been restocking and restoring, so they're not really ready to show. The first is a Darne type with no makers marks anywhere. I must have records on at least twelve different names associated with Darne type shotguns, but so far I can't identify the maker of this shotgun.






The second is a very well made boxlock that I am stocking to my likes rather than a typically French design. Diamond grip with sunken side panels and drops were not original to the gun...it's just a shooter...





Note the Purdey type bolt rather than the Helice-Grip quad lock up or it's three bite Verney Carron sister, Triple Verrou.

Hey guys here are some pictures of my wife's Manufrance.

Dave B

Per the current president of Verney-Carron, his ancestor invented and patented the Helice system in the 19th century. It was copied by many other makers when the patent expired.

As Ted said, it's almost certainly too late to do a book on French doubles. So much of the industry vanished after WWII. And that's a shame.

The first gun is an 1984 Darne patent design. In 1909 Regis Darne improved (updated, actually-there wasn't much wrong with his earlier patents) the R, V and P patent guns, mostly so his son, Francisque, would have a proven design to sell and use at his company. Francisque did quite well with the older designs, and sold models based on the 1894 patent that were even further improved, to the point that a gold medal was awarded for his 1910 exposition guns.
Most would call this example a "guild" gun, and it may be, but, it is more likely what I call a "lunchbox special" built the same way Johnny Cash built his car. Many French gun maker employees were talented enough to build, or, farm out the work they couldn't do, to produce guns in their spare time for profit. And, they did. The proof with powder T tells us built after 1909. The one piece stock points to an earlier gun, as two piece sliding breech guns were "nom de rigor" after about 1925, or so. The 30,000 plus serial number is likely quite optimistic if this is the case, but, was used as a ploy on occasion to help sell guns that had no name-"they've built that many, eh?"
Name or not, I've no doubt is is a nice handling bird gun, and will be useful for that for many, many seasons to come. Light loads (have a look at the chokes and chambers for eveyday use) will improve a guys opinion of it, the earlier patent guns are light and can kick like hell. Use it in good health.
Gun number two is a French boxlock. Hope you didn't pay a lot, and it will do everything, within reason, that a guy might ask of an upland gun. Ditto the use in good health bit.
Best,
Ted

My French double, a 24 guage. http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e279/Captjoel/FrenchDoubleFlintlock006.jpg http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e279/Captjoel/FrenchDoubleFlintlock005.jpg http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e279/Captjoel/FrenchDoubleFlintlock012.jpg

Interesting timing,
I have been watching this gun at auction,mainly because I did not recognize the name.
It is possibly French?
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=98454282

HELICE, that's French.

Pictures aren't the greatest, but the St. Etienne triple proofmarks show on the barrels. Definitely French.

Ted, thank you..your reply brings up more questions...Hope your up for a round of questions... Please excuse me in advance if I ask what may seem to be a ridiculous question. Although I have a pile of stuff on the Darne explosion, and I've examined all of it, I've not yet structured it into a timeline as a Darne collector would. First, we're talking about Regis, correct, in regards to the 1894? patent? I can't find anything that shows Regis being active as an inventor before 1909. I've read stuff about that refers to earlier dates but I can't seem to get past 1909. I've come across other sliding breech patents and advertisements that pre-date that, but not by Darne. Clair Freres in 1907 and Charlin to 1904, but even then things look a little strange. Beyond that, the Darne evolution seems to wander, like this 1891 Chevalier ad. So we know some Darne was active before 1890, but who?



Any insights or clues could be very helpful...also when I compare this Darne type to the patent drawings, it most resembles a drawing by Francisque Darne in 1911. And, no I didn't pay a lot. The Darne type cost $125, needing restocking and more. The Compain 16 was very nearly free, needing restocking and rebluing. The Compain is a Cadillac, made to withstand heavy range use, which is good around here, because all our pheasants are gone.

More for everyones files...the folowing is two pages from a 1928 catalog that shows relative costs of Robust, Darne, and Charlin.

Well, from memory, I will do my best. The significant Regis Darne patents were 1881 for the rotating breech model C, 1887 for the pivot breech model A (nice illustration above, by the way) 1894 for the first generation sliding breech designs, 1896 for a quick loading "Canardier" (punt gun) 1902 for flanged (monobloc) barrels, and 1908 (renewed in 1933) patents for the intercepting sear arrangement on V guns (although they aren't sears, and don't work exactly like intercepting sears, they do accomplish the same thing) and converging obturator discs. Those are the significant civilian patents, in 1916 (renewed in 1936) Regis Darne received patent for a synchronized aviation machine gun that spat out 1200 rounds per minute.

Regis Darne had been at design work in the firearms industry for many decades prior to 1909. He was very elderly when he passed away in 1939.

Somewhere in my collection of Darne trivia, is an English sales brochure on the Darne machine gun. It was intended for military consumption, and was, contrary to several reports, a good functioning unit, and quite light.

Francisque was Regis Darnes eldest son, and for the usual reasons, struck out on his own, circa 1909. If he was ever awarded a patent for anything, I've yet to see it in writing, and, sadly, he died in 1917. The company he founded, Francisque Darne, Fils Ainé, soldiered on until 1955, under several different owners. Quite a few French civilian gun manufacturers gave up the ghost circa 1955, by the way. Tough economic times were the cause.

When I was last in St. Etienne, I passed on a neat model A, which was a pre 1887 patent gun, based on the fact it had damascus barrels. I've seen a few 1894 patent Darne sliding breech guns that seem to be pre patent guns as well, based on the fact that they were barreled by others, and had no patent information on them. The first production Darnes were barreled by others, and it must have chapped senior Mr. Darne's ass badly, as most of the guns he built later go into great detail on the flats that they are patented and barreled by Darne. The 1909 catalog has 1881 and 1909 patent model C guns (the very first model C rotating breech models were hammer damascus guns, I've seen and photographed one example, but, never seen them in a catalog) 1907 patent model A (improved) 1894 patent model R guns, 1898 model P guns, and 1909 model R and V guns, and several different punt guns. Whew. Something for everyone.

By 1936, just the 1909 R and V models, along with two grades of Halifax (# 4 and 5) and a single grade of P, # 17, are listed.
Only one of the V guns gets triple proofed, the 22. V guns 19-21 are double proof guns. All R and P models are triple proofed, excepting Halifax, double proof on both grades.

Gold medals were won in Paris, in 1889 and 1900, St. Etienne in 1891. Exposition honors in Lyon, 1894, Bologne, 1927, Liege, 1905, Milan, 1906, Marseille and Berlin, 1907, London (!) 1908, Turin, 1911, Liege (again) in 1930, and Paris, 1931.

The list of pigeon shoots where folks using Darne guns won is too long to type, but, includes places like Monte Carlo, Vichy, Monoco, and some off the beaten path places as well, Moscow, Bogota, Palencia, Lisbon, etc.

Hope that answers a few questions. Don't ask any more for a while, OK?
Best,
Ted

Ha, Ha, ha...Got news for you, Robert-the first two guns and the "Darne" guns listed in your post are not "Darnes" at all-they are Francisque Darne guns. One has to be careful not to get the two distinct manufacturers confused.

Darne Fils roughly translates to "Darnes son", or, "Darne junior". You can get better descriptions of the guns in the Jallas & Cie era (1936) Francisque Darne catalog, available as a reprint from info arms.
Best,
Ted

I have never been able to locate "Info Arms", I assumed they went out of bidness (that's how our local politicians sometimes pronounce business on the news)...does anyone know how to find Info Arms?

Ted. are you sure about the Darne V series proofs. My 1931 v20 shows three marks. The 36 catalogue is contrdictory/ The table says three palms means triple proof. The text says it means double proof while 4 palms means triple proof. Which is correct?Dr. Dozier sends

So that everyone else can be on the same page...if this is out of line, just say so and I will delete these images...

Ted, I've seen an example of the Darne aviation machinegun: in the US Army Ordnance Museum, Aberdeen Proving Grounds. I knew about Darne shotguns before I went there. Had no idea about the MG.

Ok, I'll play too. Here is my French Box lock that I know nothing about! Where these guns case colored? There is nothing at all on this gun.

I'm pretty sure four palms was the old pre 1923 superior proof with black powder. My dog ate my copy of Wernsberger, but, it is in there. The danger of relying on catalogs for research is an occasional typo, or, out and out falsehood will be seen in print. Catalogs are put together by writers, who may, or may not have knowledge of the product at hand. Uh, no offense intended, Larry.

If Mr. Customer came in the door and asked for triple proof on his new V grade gun, he got it-not for free, however, they charged a couple bucks (francs) for this. The catalog information does match up with examples I have seen, and the fact that V grade double rifles were discontinued early in the century-an R is a far more robust design, and better suited for slug and double rifle use. If one has a V20 that shows triple proof, well, it was triple proofed. But not all of them (talking pre-war here, I think everything was triple proofed after the war) were. Especially if one purchased it off the rack.

The address for info arms is


Info Arms
PO Box 1262
Champlain, NY 12919

No idea if they are still in business. But I have a stack of reprints I bought from them years ago.

Larry, I got to handle a Darne aviation machine gun, in France. But, it was in the hands of a private "collector" and he would go to prison for the rest of his life if anyone in France found out who he was.
Since it uses uncommon ammunition (12mm, I think) I'm not sure what the big deal is, but, there you have it.

To review today's lessons:

There were two companies that produced sliding breech guns with the name Darne on them. With study, and practice, one can learn to tell them apart. Or, you can just look at the name-one will be marked "F. Darne" and one will be marked "Darne".

There were other companies and individuals that produced sliding breech guns, with, and without a name on them. Some of them are simple copies, some are quite good in their own right, and some, like the Charlin, are arguably more novel or superior in design.

Although, don't argue the point with me, as I prefer a Darne R model over and above anything else.

Class dismissed.
Best,
Ted

Thanks Ted, You really are the font of knowledge when it comes to Darnes. Dr. Dozier sends with gratitude for clearing up the mystery. As a former broadaster and broadcast professor I should know not to trust copy writers.

Lets not forget Soleihac?, Alexandre Bayle, Blandin, Lebel, Meyer, Conchon, and Verney Carron and more...all made sliding breech shotguns...and it would be unfair to not even mention Jas Merrill of Baltimore MD, who began the evolution of the pivoting key mechanism (lock up) with single shots in 1858 (US pat 20954)
..
Thanks, I'll try writing to info arms at that address if they have no telephone listing.
..
dubbletrubble...your pics are great, but what about the lock up and rib extension...although the gun was clearly proved in St Etienne, without seeing the lock up it's hard to determine if it's a St. Etienne action, or a Liege action that was barreled and joined by Fanget Freres, proved in St Etienne and finished by DR or Chevillard, which is an unknown makers mark to me. Thanks for posting this DR gun, I suspect that the French boxlocks can be broken down not only by the action origins (Liege, Manufrance,Verney), but by the barrels makers like Jean Bruiel (sp?), Fanget, Lugranit, Jean Falla (Be) and others...Auxerre is much closer to Paris than St Etienne...why send it a distant city for proving? unless it was made in St Etienne and supplied to Chevillard already joined and proved to be stocked and finished in Auxerre..if that is the case, it will have a Verney type lock up rather than the Purdey type triple verrou or the Greener type lock up that is more closely associated with actions that have their origins in Liege rather than St Etienne...

DT, that's a very typical French boxlock. Single (normal) St. Etienne proof. Fanget made a lot of barrels; have seen that name frequently on French guns. My guess would be that it's a St. Etienne gun, made for M. Chevillard's gun shop in Auxerre. Whether Chevillard did anything at all to the gun, other than sell it, is questionable. Maybe stock it and finish it . . . that "ARQB" is an abbreviation for arquebusier, or gunmaker--but I think it was also used by a lot of gun dealers/gunsmiths who really weren't makers at all.

And DT, you'll be happy to know your gun has barrels that won't explode. Says so right on them.

Robert, I've never seen a Verney-Carron sliding breech gun. All the side by sides they advertise currently are made elsewhere. Wonder if perhaps they had someone else make Darne-type guns for them at some point?

Thanks all for the info. I have shot it and the chokes are like full and REALLY full. It's also a 16 bore. Once again thanks to all for the info.

"Whether Chevillard did anything at all to the gun, other than sell it, is questionable."

Well said...I also believe that's the way the French gun trade worked, but it would be hard to back to back my words if someone asked me to substantiate my views, especially when the ARQB title is present. If I had to wager, I would say DR played more of a role as arqb than did Chevillard.
..
I'll start sniffing around for Verney Carron slider stuff to post. Should I leave out the Stopvis because of it being a single shot shotgun, or should I at least post a picture for all the readers who don't know what a Stopvis sliding breech shotgun is?
..
I'm struggling to find the words that I would like to say, so I'll just blurt the concept out..I've had 9 Frenchies come and go over the years. If only I could get them back together for a few days to compare marks and lock ups with the ones I have now, I would have a clearer picture of how the French trade worked [as opposed to the cottage work that figures so heavily in the Liege trade]. Just imagine the lessons that could be learned if 50 or 75 could French boxlocks could be compared. Roughly sorted by lock up and proof house would yeild a great understanding. Further broken down into specific lock ups and barrel makers would further the understanding. The French guntrade is hardly the final frontier, in fact, I predict that it will be reverse engineered within the next ten years if it hasn't been already. There are at least two new books out on French doubles, one of which is on Darne or the Darne types. I suggested to a collector from Belgium, that he is (perhaps) the worlds foremost sporting gun catalog collector (over 2000 European catalogs), his response was, that there are several catalog collectors who are far more advanced than he, but that his collection is the most diverse as the other collectors have focused primarily on French makers. With at least two collectors competing for the French reference data, it won't be long 'til someone gets their stuff to market. I'm gonna save lock up/proof house/barrel maker/touch mark data, just to see what pans out...I have never owned a French ejector gun, can't say that I've seen more than 3 or 4, do you have and any explanation for the rarity of French ejectors, or am I just not seeing them?.

A high percentage of the French doubles I have seen have Belgian proofs. I suspect that Belgium was the Birmingham for many French sellers. That said, I have seen Gastine Rennet [can never get the spelling of that right] guns that are second to none. These often have Belgian proofs. A three barreled 16 ga by Morian is another example. Paris address, Belgian proofs.

Daryl, if they have Belgian proofs and a French address, I guess I differ with you on terminology. I just call them Belgian doubles, pretty much like the Belgian doubles that came to this country with British or American names on them.

Gastinne Renette . . . I owned a Petrik system OU that was marked Gastinne Renette.

The French had a very active cottage industry of their own. You'll see a lot of guns with nothing but St. Etienne proofs and either no name or a French address (quite often provincial rather than Paris), barrels by a French barrelmaker like Fanget or Breuil. Quite a few of them used the Helice system, after the Verney-Carron patent expired. But there certainly were a lot of Belgian guns marketed in France. I just traded a 16 marked "C. Mode" with a Paris address but Belgian proofs.

Those are Belgian doubles that were marketed in France, like the L'Abielle line. There were some exceptions. I'm not sure what year France and Belgium separated but I'm sure the border was imaginary in the minds of some.

Larry, of course the terminology can be misleading. The French marked, Belgian proofed guns , often seem to have a French flavor to the finish and engraving. Surely some were "finished up" in France much like Birmingham guns were "finished up" in London. a
As to Gastinne Renette, I know they were a huge store, selling much more than firearms, but for the most part their doubles were beautifully refined, with engraving unlike guns with Belgian names on them. Of course there were barrel makers like Bernard etc,--do you know where they got their tubes ? I have also owned a Cogswell and Harrison , Paris address, with Austrian proofs. C and H have no record of this exact gun, but one can only wonder about it's history. I don't know the French proof laws and wonder if they accepted Belgian proofs in France.

I'd agree with the others, I imagine Chevillard put his name on the gun and sold it but it was made elsewhere.

My little Seytre game gun, has "Lacroix Paris" on the rib, and that was the owner of a other dodgy shop in the 1950s-60s. He just put his name on the gun. Seems my little baby was originally a Belgian action that was sent to a M. Seytre in Saint Etienne in the 1950s and finished. It was then sold in M. Lacroix's shop.

Daryl, the French had a bunch of barrelmakers. Even today, it's my understanding that Verney-Carron makes barrels for other companies. In fact, that odd-looking "Metro" barrel marketed by Hastings, and which (along with low velocity loads) will significantly reduce the sound of a shotgun report, is made by V-C.

As far as acceptance of Belgian proofs, the European countries seem to have gone back and forth on accepting each other's proofs, until the CIP was formed. But from everything I've read, they all seem to have tried to bring their own proof laws into sync with other Euro countries, even pre-CIP. But France did retain a far stouter optional proof than just about anyone else.

Thanks, Larry. If I read the post above correctly, the fine Seytre/Lacroix sidelock pictured is Belgian origin, finished up in France.

On the "barrels" by Verney=Carron, do you mean they make the rough tubes, too, or do they put purchased tubes together for more finished barrel sets ? I am not familiar with "Metro". To sort of clarify my thinking, I am really most familiar with pre WWII gunmakers and really don't "follow" guns made later. I understand that modern machinery can produce products in house that would have been hard to duplicate in house at the turn of the century.

A propos:







Gastinne Renette

JC(AL)

Here are a few more and better quality photos of it. So just who was DR? That has alway been a mystery.

JC, thank you. I hope readers will click on your "Gastinne Renette" site and see the info there. Neat gun you have with two colors of gold in the monogram. Can you tell us about the proofmarks as I am away from my references. Daryl

Daryl,

The gun is for sale in a French website. 16/65 and the owner says it is not fit for
shooting as the barrels are pitted. He sent me the photos.

Littlegun in Belgium once again provides excellent information.

JC(AL)

OK here is the first of the Verney Carron slider info, although there are several others, I think this will erase any doubts the Verney contributed to the evolution of todays modern sliding breech shotgun. In 1925 Verney was granted an English patent for his improvements in the sliding breech lock up. GB283928. In 1928, another patent was issued, but for the double button lock up as found on the Stopvis (GB306649) which clearly states it is for single and double barrels. Then in 1930 Verney was back to the traditional top key when he was granted a patent in Germany (DE492485), besides any patents that were issued in France and Belgium. I've seen a Verney Carron darne type, but never a Stopvis double, but no doubt some were made.

". . . one or more rotating locking heads"; hmmm. What is the piston-like object protruding from the "breech face" of the Stopvis and described in the Verney/Massard patent, Robt.? Is it a rotating bolt head as in a rifle or a Benelli Nova? I guess you weren't kidding about having the "paper". Made a believer out of me!

jack

Very interesting stuff, thanks to all.

JC my Roblin has 2 interesting traits that are on the hammer gun you posted. The forend is connected and the Crest is 2 tone gold.




Thanks again to all,
Jeff G.

While we are on the subject of Verney Carron guns here is one I’ve owned for a couple of years, 12ga w/ejectors, very light , 6lb, 3oz, a small amount of nicely done engraving, decent wood and quality workmanship.

Kennett says 4 palms are "Double proof (black powder) of semi-finished barrels at 20,500 psi, until 1924. Presently (1970) called triple proof at 18,000 psi."

Alan at Little Gun
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20francaise/artisans%20c%20d/a%20darne%20gb.htm
4 palms = 30 grams Black powder, 180 grams of #8 shot, 1720 kg/cm²

Some really interesting Darne pictures on that Little Gun page by the way.


1794 Low Countries and Liege conquered by the French
1815 Belgium part of the United Kingdom of the Netherlands
1830 Belgian Revolution
1831 installation of Leopold I as king
1839 independence recognized by the Treaty of London

Pete

Daryl, I'm pretty sure V-C makes their own barrels now, or at least that's what their catalog indicates. Not sure that's always been the case.

Interesting stuff on the V-C sliding breech gun.

DR was likely the actioner of your gun, DT--although the initials don't ring any bells with me.

James, looks like your gun started life as 2 1/2" and was at some point lengthened to 2 3/4".

Thanks Pete...AND.. thank you for redirecting me to the French Identified Craftsmen page...I just noticed that an ID question that was sent out to all the members of "Friends of the Liege Museum" several years ago, regarding a Berthon Freres O/U, wound up posting the reference material that I submitted. French makers are not my strong suit, but the info passed the scrutiny of the other board members. Believe me, they are not keen on some American telling them of their own history. Over the years associated with Littlegun, not one smart ass accused me of being on drugs, or wearing aluminum foil hats (like Yeti)...It should come as no suprise that fellow researchers are reluctant to post here......
So, I say THANK YOU to Mr.Brown, Ted and ALL the others who let me post some French data, without becoming anything other than interested. We are not going to unravel the French gun trade here and it's doubtful that anyone will print the thread, but some will save all the digital images in their computer or on CD to be later compared to additional posted data...quickly, and without papers or file cabinets.

Robert-

I would like to thank you for suggesting this topic and thank all of the other good sports who searched out photos and/or took the time to post photos of their guns and to share images and their knowledge pertaining to this topic.

I agree this has been one of the better discussions in terms of information shared and I hope that as soon as it appears there is no more information out there to share and the discussion is over, the discussion can be moved over for future reference to the FAQ's/DoubleGun Knowledge base because this has a lot of good reference information on the French side-by-side shotguns.

Doug

Darne Type "Arcachon"
I have a Darne Type 12 gauge marked Arcachon on one side of the receiver and Laiau or Lainau on the otther side of the receiver. It is very nicely engraved with a one piece stock. Has anyone run across this type. I know that Arcachon is a coastal area or town in France but I am unable to locate in information on the maker. Could it be a model designation of some other maker? I do not know how to remove the barrels and don't want to force anything. Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks

Located near Bordeaux. My guess would be that the gun might have been made for a gunshop in Arcachon.

Pirlet-Badin
26 rue du Fg St-Honore, Paris.
I have this nice boxlock and I also used to have a sidelock.
The boxlock is turn of the century (the 20th of course) and is really well made. It is proofed for Poudre J and poudre M rather than for the omnipresent Poudre T. It's got ejectors and intercepting sears.
The high end Paris retailers such as Pirlet, Gastinne and Guyot often bought actions or finished guns from the Liege trade. This gun is one of those. There is a faint Perron on the water table.
However, it definitely has a French twist.
[img]http://farm1.static.flickr.com/226/490814972_71f851bd63.jpg?v=0[/img]
[img]http://farm1.static.flickr.com/228/490814974_3f2f689ce4.jpg?v=0[/img]
My Granger is likely to be the best gun I own. It is a delightful 20 bore and compares to the very best in the world.
Granger was almost unique as he made everything in his shop, locks, stock and barrels!
Best
Wildcattle
[img]http://farm1.static.flickr.com/203/490854981_e874678208.jpg?v=0[/img]

Nice Granger....Every example I've handled is nothing short of superb. Not likely I'll actually own one anytime soon(a old R10 Darne 12 gauge, and a new R15 20 gauge will have to do) but, nice to drool on pics of yours. Enjoy.
Best,
Ted

That hand detachable sidelock above looks like a Cordy. From acroos the room...

Okay, we now have pics of a Granger, now about a little history of that firm!!! Like how old is it, is it a partnership, sole-proprietorship, who or what does Granger stand for, does it have a name, a number!!!! come on you, there has to be a thousand, ten thousand graves there!!!!Just to quote Tuco from the movie!!!
All the best

No shortage of info on Granger. If you want one, you can buy one through JJ Perodeau at Champlin Arms. I believe you'll find more information on Granger on their website.