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Ted, Here's my best explanation. All problems come with priorities. Illegal immigrants are a problem, but they're not threatening the existence of our civilization. As a civil and civilized nation, we are willing to fence and patrol a lot of the southern border which does lower the rate of infiltration very significantly. We are not, however, willing to violently repel people who come seeking a better life. No one would volunteer to shoot women and children when they set foot on our soil. And that is what it would take. As a whole and as a Christian nation we would rather suffer the expense of accepting a degree of illegal immigration than forcefully repelling all invaders. In addition, there is the consideration other posts have mentioned: economically we need these workers. As is often pointed out here, some Americans are lazy. They don't want to do stoop labor. Picking strawberries is very hard work. Before I moved from southern Oregon, I saw farmers ploughing their strawberry crops under because they couldn't hire people to pick them. So, as a nation we've decided to live with a measure of illegal immigration. So far, it's manageable. The Spartans were faced with people bent on exterminating them. We're faced with people so desperate for a better life that they'll send their children when they can't afford to try to accompany them. Our survival is not what is at stake here.

So how many can I put you down for to raise ?

poastoak, If I were younger, I just might take one in. I have four biological children and one adopted. There was a time when one more would not have been unmanageable. Now I'll willingly pay a bit more in taxes.I'm happy to live in a country others will risk their lives to get into rather than one we'd risk our lives to get out of.

You will not have a Country much longer.

With a strong Welfare Magnet, weak immigration policy, and an endless supply of immigrants your open wallet will not last long.

What then ?

Illegal immigrants are just that... Illegal.

Law breakers should not be given a break when there are millions of people who are pursuing citizenship by following the rule of law. The "broken" immigration system was broken by Democrats for their own selfish purposes.

Part of the Amnesty signed into law by Reagan after being passed by the House and Senate... not an executive order... provided funding to secure the porous border. Liberal Democrats have prevented that funding from being used for its' intended purpose. As a result, we have untold millions here stealing from all of us when they use our schools, infrastructure, and health care system without paying any taxes. They are also driving down wages by taking work from poor unemployed citizens. The number of illegals has been stuck on 11 million for over a decade. The real number is probably twice that.

I have in the past done some of the hard labor that rocky mtn bill claims Americans will just not do. Even today, as technical as my job is, there is often a demanding physical component to it. I imagine many others here have as well. It would have been far easier to just sit around and collect a government check. Liberal Democrats like rocky mtn bill are the root cause of the problems we face today. They created the Welfare State and the Great Society policies which made people dependent government serfs, and they are responsible for the destruction of the black family. They support and pass all this feel good legislation and blame someone else when it does not work. And they always expect someone else to pay the bill for their abject stupidity and failure.

Worse yet, here on a firearms forum, we have guys like rocky mtn bill who support and provide cover for the Liberal Left Democrats who continually infringe upon our Second Amendment Right to own and use firearms. Guys like bill aren't part of the problem. They are the problem.

Interesting Bill. You opened up the topic. You felt it was a good opportunity to belittle Republicans, but it is a topic of current affairs and in the news lately because bo has decided it's the number one issue of the day.

Why don't you have any criticism for your man in dc for creating yet another divide in the country, when you're saying it's just not that important an issue.

Then again, aren't you one that complains there're too many minorities in prison. What's the percentage of illegal felon border crossers that fill, say, kali prisons. Don't you feel as a dem that our prisons are a blight on the very little civility of this nation.

By the way, no, repeat no, we are not willing to fence or patrol our southern border. There are border laws on the books, but there has to be the willingness to try to enforce those laws. There have been clear signals by bo-n-company that some laws will not be recognized let alone enforced.

Why didn't bo put this effort into actually saving the environment. To use King's words, bo's been backchanneling a bunch lately. Reports are that bo may be within a week of working an iranian nuke 'deal' if they give us a bit of window dressing help with a token strike or two against their other radical islamic brothers. What better cover than to have libs parrot the R's hate kids and hispanics line, over an unimportant issue.

He'll probably approach it like the southern border, we can look the other way, it's not that bad, I'll be making big bucks on the lecture circuit in two years. I know you'll be good with that out of sight out of mind approach. I worry if one of my grandkids will have to go to iran a few short years from now with the mil to root out radicals with nukes. You may have your own grandkids.

To clarify a couple points, I'd first say that I'm not defending illegal immigration; instead, I'm interested in effective and humane ways to deal with it. Two, to portray these people as merely freeloaders is ignoring some facts. The actuary for the Social Security Administration estimates that undocumented workers paid in $100 billion dollars over the last decade without collecting any benefits. Their households paid $11 billion in taxes. This discussion turns out to be like all the others here. The hard core refuses to grant the possibility of there being two sides to the issue while dismissing dissent as lying. To have integrity, an argument should examine the issue from all sides.

Bill, that 11 billion figure sounds impressive, until you consider the simple fact that nobody hires an illegal at prevailing rate. Nobody. So, if the job the illegal was doing went to an American citizen, it would have paid better, and MORE would have been paid in taxes. I'm kind of tired of the argument that there are jobs Americans won't do, either, as I've met plenty of folks in the last few years who would have taken literally anything-had anything been available.
Sorry, but, we have laws for a reason. Any rational applied to easier immigration for south of the border Hispanics could also be applied to dozens of other countries all around the world-think your average Chinese peasant or North Korean would turn down a shot here in the states? If you really want a laugh, ask at a neighborhood meeting of your local Somali, Hmong, or Russian community (we got 'em all right here, in Mpls.) how they feel about Hispanic illegal immigration, and whether we are "humane" enough to them. The recent Russian immigrants I've met harbor no illusions of Hispanics, here illegally, being treated unfairly. You should hear what they have to say. It isn't humane. What, exactly, do we owe Hispanics that we don't owe Poles or Turks, for example? Make immigration fair, and have a legal procedure for all, get in line, pay the fees, and have the same treatment for all potential immigrants, period.
On another point, if you choose to open your wallet to pay more taxes, that is a nice choice, but, if I really would rather not, what choice do I have? Charity really shouldn't come with an "or else" from the IRS or the US Government. The liberals (like you) have confused true charity with US tax code, and I'd like my "Change" back, so to speak.
I'm willing to live with the notion that you consider it unfair of me to keep more of the money I make.

Best,
Ted

What Bill? You mean the objective and intellectual way you portray the Tea Party?

The problem is Bill, you believe in lies and mythology. Then, you demonize others who don't have your sociopathic religious beliefs.

It's pure mythology and propaganda that illegals pay a net positive amount of taxes. They are probably the worst offenders who use the Earned Income Tax Credit in order to receive taxpayer money. They simply claim multiple children, conveniently not present in the country, in order to receive the cash. This was explained to me by an illegal over 20 years ago.