doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Alternees

Some have seen this thread but I thought I'd go ahead and post it here to clear up some issues
http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=15082

Good place to start
https://docs.google.com/a/damascusknowle...MNs5L2XVfc/edit

It all starts with the lopin or billet: thin strips of iron and steel called 'alternees' or leaves.

The lopin is heated, hammered, and/or rolled into a rod, stripe, band, blade, iron, or rope � THEY ALL MEAN THE SAME THING and in the finished barrel are described as a 'scroll' by their appearance in Crolle pattern damascus.

The scrolls are larger in 2 Iron/Stripe and (usually) progressively smaller 3 to 4 to 6 Iron.
The size of the scrolls is dependent on how tightly the rods are twisted before being hammer welded into the ribband AND how many alternees are in the rods.

2 and some 3 Iron/Stripe crolle patterns usually have 7 or 8 steel (which stain black) and 7 or 8 iron (which do not stain so silver) alternees or leaves within the scroll.

2 Iron



3 and 4 Iron might have 6 and 6.

Parker D3 refinished by Dale Edmonds



4 and 6 Iron usually have 4 and 5 or 4 and 4. End view of the rod with 4 steel and 5 iron alternees



4 Iron



6 Iron with 4 and 4

More complex patterns of course require more complicated 'stacking' or 'piling' of the billet, as shown by this Washington or American Flag illustration.



The Damascus and Twist barrels of most U.S. gunmakers were finished in a black and white pattern; BLACK BEING THE STEEL AND WHITE, THE IRON AFTER STAINING. In this illustration however, the black 'stars' are iron and after finishing will be silver.

Hey Doc Drew,
It's possible that there are a bit more 'alternees' than you are thinking. For instance, in your first two pictures, the 2 iron and the Parker D3, it looks like the 'lopin' have better than 20 layers prior to twisting.

It's possible that both those barrels started with very similar 'lopin', I count somewhere around 24 layers for both. The difference is likely that the 'lopin' on the Parker D3 example was drawn down, forged, to a smaller square cross section before twisting. Just thoughts is all.

I find this stuff beautiful and fascinating. Thanks for sharing.

It is very fascinating...I keep wondering how the end pattern shown in the blank ends up a surface pattern on the barrel?

Just a quick "Thanks" for sharing these pictures.

Thanks Craig, and you are correct. I should have 'splained it better.

I've never found the word 'scroll' or 'leaves' in the mid to late 1800s Belgian and British descriptions of methodology or pattern nomenclature. Alternees is obviously French. Steve Culver already told me neither a c. late 1800s nor modern blacksmith would approve Dr Gaddy used the scroll or whorl words, and I do think they are appropriate descriptive terms

That said, the 'scroll' that we see in the pattern is made up of the 2 halves of adjacent rods hammer welded. The rod would have at least twice the numbers I stated for the 1/2 scroll.

You can count the alternees pretty easily in this image, and can see how the 'outside' alternee joins the adjacent scroll. I count 12 and possibly 13 iron alternee, for a total of 24 or 26. The rod is between the two 'zipper' (wavy) welds.

These are a Two Iron 'Horse-shoe' pattern. One can clearly see that the leaves between the zipper welds are connected ie. part of the same rod





As are the leaves in this 4 Iron 'Turkish Star' pattern, which makes the 'stars' between, not within, the scrolls

This is Steve Helsley's Powell with 'English Two Stripe' and the lower barrel quite clearly shows the zipper (wavy) weld which is down the middle of a scroll but is the weld of adjacent rods, and the straight weld where the edges of the ribband are 'jumped' or butt welded. I count 24 alternees.

wonderful thread.