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Your are correct, 50k - 80k folks were employed in the weapons trade from the mid 1890 till early 1900s.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I believe workmen were being paid 65 cents to 75 cents per day.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Drew might have gotten the 2k tube maker number from number of workers employed at FN to make tubes.

I've seen more than one article to indicate that circa 1905 that near 15k barrels were submitted for proof daily at the Liege proof facility. At least 3.5k were wheel guns & they the whole of the cylinder was counted as 1.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Board of Trade Journal, Volume 10 1891
http://books.google.com/books?id=-X3NAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA556&dq
The most important industry of Liege is the manufacture of firearms. There are over 180 gun-makers in the town alone, and in the district the industry gives employment to more than 40,000 workmen.

The New York Times, May 3, 1896 �Costly Belgian Gun Barrels�
The United States Consul in Liege describes, in a recent report, the manufacture of and trade in damascus gun barrels, wholly hand made, in the valley of the Vesdre in Liege Province. These barrels are for sporting guns, and the industry is many years old, the workmen in the villages in the valley being almost all gunbarrel makers, and the trade descending from father to son. The best barrels are a combination of the best primary substances, welded and forged by the martelage �a froid process; the steel comes from Westphalia, the iron is manufactured at Couvin, in Belgium; the coal, which is specially suited for the work, from the Herve� Highlands, in Belgium, while the motive power of the factories is obtained from the River Vesdre. The industry has increased greatly in recent years.
These armes de luxe, as they are called, are made by men working in pairs, each pair in its own little factory, quite independent of all others. They are paid by the piece, the wages being good, and about 2000 men are engaged on the work in the valley. Medium quality barrels are made of coke iron and steel, while the superior quality, which are produced in the Vesdre Valley, are made of charcoal iron and steel. An ingenious �marriage� of these metals gives a composition which, when manufactured, guarantees the required solidity and resistance. The improvement in these Damascus barrels dates from the introduction of percussion caps in place of the old flint lock. Formerly iron barrels alone were produced; now to manufacture the curled damascus, the ingot is composed of thirty sheets of iron and steel, each having a thickness of four millimeters, which are enveloped in a sheet-iron box, placed in an oven and welded together at the lowest possible temperature. Each barrel receives 150 welding-beats while being forged, and if a single one of those is unsuccessful the barrel may be a failure, either by alteration of the damascened work or an imperfection in the welding.
There is no official test of these armes de luxe, but they are thoroughly tested by the manufacturers before delivery. The annual production of Damascus barrels in the Vesdre Valley is about 300,000 pairs, of a value of about 3,500,000f. Of this the wages alone- for all the guns are handmade- amount to about 2,000,000f. The principal markets are Great Britain and the United States. About half the barrels made in the Vesdre Valley are sold to manufacturers of arms in Liege to be mounted.

Manfred Sachse estimated that more than 700 workers were making damascus in the Liege region in 1897.

Commercial Relations of the United States with Foreign Countries During the Year 1903
By United States Bureau of Foreign Commerce, United States Dept. of Commerce and Labor. Bureau of Statistics, United States Bureau of Manufactures.
"Gun Barrel Industry in Liege"
http://books.google.com/books?id=piEZAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA330&dq
"nearly 70,000 persons of both sexes are engaged in the making of guns, barrels, and stocks..."

More here
https://docs.google.com/a/damascusknowle...3mCo/edit?pli=1

O/U Percussion Pistol with Acid Etched 4 Iron Crolle

Craig,
Reforging a tube would cause a small change to the damascus pattern, though not significant. It would only cause the pattern to be slightly smaller. It would be entirely possible to select a shotgun tube that had a pattern of a size that would look appropriate after reforging.

In Greener's comment about making damascus rifle tubes, he does also state that they were welded of thicker riband. Having thicker barrel walls on ball and bullet barrels would seem to be logical. Though for black powder use, thicker walls are not entirely necessary for containing pressure. With a barrel for a gun intended to fire very heavy loads, one would want thicker walls. But as with the barrels on the O/U pistol that Drew posted, they are fairly thin walled. There is a whole myriad of considerations for barrel wall thickness, including how the barrel will be breached and how it will be affixed in the gun stock. There is also some consideration for the thickness of the riband, to effect the creation of the damascus pattern. It's a deep subject and one for which I am not certain that I have all of the answers to; only some experience based speculations. It will require a rather lengthy dissertation to work through my hypothesis. In other words; it's gonna' take some 'slpaining. I think it would be better if I start another thread on the topic. Things are about to get busy in our house for the holiday. I'll try to compose some words and post in a few days.

Drew,
Just for clarification, moire' describes damascus that does not have a distinct created pattern?? Random swirls??

The barrels on the percussion pistols seem to me to be faux damascus. The direction of the layers in the pattern seem illogical. Though if faux, they were thoughtful enough to etch in lines for the riband edge welds.

The Valentin barrels look like genuine damascus. Maybe a conglomeration of scrap metal pieces.

The pattern in the knife blade, I would call a lazy ladder pattern. Low layer count and wide spacing on the ladders. Below is a bowie that I recently made. The blade is a 330 layer ladder pattern.

1912 source -

"Practically all of the gun barrels used by American shotgun manufacturers are imported from Belgium. Several American manufacturers undertook to make these barrels, but finally had to give up the attempt, as they could not begin to compete with the product of Belgium factories, which are imported free under the present tariff. Parker Bros Gun Co erected an addition to its factory put in up to date machinery and brought men from Belgium to show their blacksmiths how to make gun barrels. This company soon had to give up the attempt however as they had to pay their blacksmiths from 32 to 40 cents an hour while the highest wage paid Belgium blacksmiths for exactly the same grade of work is 11 cents an hour."

11 cents per hour for the blacksmiths.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

My only resource for Damas Moire' is here, only partially translated from the original
https://docs.google.com/a/damascusknowle...67VsZgzJ9Q/edit

Canon � ruban moir� et ruban anglais
By manufacturing the lopin, to make the iron and steel barrel from which I come to speak, it arrived sometimes that the forgeur is misled, with the of place; ce qui avait confondu toutes les mises ensemble. The canonnier, unaware of the error made, once the forged and d�roch� gun, is found amazed to see appearing a completely odd nuance, imitating the effet de moire. It is this the Canon Moire' was called.
This kind of barrel, whose discovery is, as one sees it randomly, due, is very resistant; unfortunately it is too prone to present pailles, because of the number infinite of the weldings of which always some are imperfect. By joining together three or four pieces together and by always preserving the dish of the settings corresponding to the dish of the ribbons, one obtained a little later finer watered effects. It is with Celt variety of moire that one gave the name of English ruban.

Canon � rubans fer �toff�
This ribbon is to some extent that a variety of watered effect. To do it, the pieces are composed as we will explain that one does it for the Damas mouchet�s, to say one joins together 100 iron alternees and of steel, square, alternated, that one welded and stretches directly in rubans like one does it for the watered effects, without making torsion and of the second welding as for the Damas.

I suspect it is a variant of "English Damascus Twist", Damas Anglais Coupe', Gebrochener Englischer Damast, or Combination Damascus; and both seem to be mid-1800s patterns.

H. Needler 12b percussion double.



More examples at the beginning here
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/19228742

That may be fairly quick and easy Doc Drew. Might be just a round punch making regular dimples along an untwisted layered bar. Round shapes are displaced out of the straight layers, then when the grinders level it back out it could look like 'pool and eye' pattern. Maybe taking on an oval shape because of some drawing out of the length of the bar.

oops, it does say 'without making torsion'.

Thanks Steve. Somehow, it would seem that good purpose made rifled barrels needed more material on the inside of the barrel. It would have likely needed to be welded on a smaller diameter mandrel, some of them have quite thicker wall thickness than a shotgun tube, but the makers ended up with the correct pattern showing on the exterior.

Some of those pistol barrel pictures have heavily distorted patterns. Probably bottom of the scrap pile and signs of expedient reforging. It would seem that some nicer sub bore shotgun barrels and smaller diameter rifled barrels may have been purpose built. Even careful reforging to a smaller diameter might show the logical elongation of the patterns that were already formed in the larger bore barrel.

Thanks for all the time you take to explain. Beautiful Bowie, very nicely done furniture and finishing.