doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Choke confusion on a Model 21

even if it had, the buyer is still an idiot if the rest of the gun is sound. I forgot to ask, barrel length? I prefer 28", but that's just me. Most 28" are M/F. I'd rather have .007 & anything else up to .040", but .020 is better with modern shells. As long as the choke work is right, I don't think choke alteration in a 21 is too big of a deal. But, maybe so if real high grade like a Grand American. Otherwise, a trivial nothing.

Winchester spent a LOT of time and effort into determining their choke values and profiles of the choke. The choke is just not a constriction number but a profile, the Ws1 and Ws2 chokes are a good example. Designed specifically for ammunition of the day and SKEET, they were also a hit with upland shooters.
It's not a trivial matter as it destroys the workmanship put into the gun and value.
In any Custom Shop gun, it would markedly lower the value if it could be determined that the choke was altered and therin lies the problem.
How anyone could get the choke right in a Winchester today is a good question except maybe Galazan.-Dick

Whatever there, Dick. I'm sensing a bit of kennel blindness with you. If you think the Winchester custom shop are the only gunsmiths in the world (oh, & Galazan) who know how to properly choke a shotgun........well, I don't even know how to respond to such statement.

The WS1 choke profile in a M-21 is unique. The point of choke constriction isn't at the muzzle, the barrel is more open at the muzzle. Like Dick, I wouldn't expect anyone other than Galazan's -- as designated Winchester Custom Shop for the M-21 -- to both understand the correct choke profile and be willing and able to correctly duplicate it. If they do the work, it can be recorded as a correctly altered WS1 choke in the Cody records. This isn't important for most people, but Dick's not talking about most people -- he's talking about someone who values factory or Custom Shop authentic M-21 chokes.

Jay

WS-1 isn't unique, Beretta uses the same profile in both their Mobilechoke and Optima systems. All are excellent sheet chokes, but I have a hard time believing that Winchester 'invented' that choke profile. They claim to have, but really? Invented it?

WS-2 is what we would call today a 'light modified'. Nothing more.

An altered WS-1 would seem to make little sense, unless the choke was too tight on a particular gun. The actual constriction of the tightest part of the WS-1 DOES vary. I own a 12 gauge M-21 with a WS-1 barrel that measures .008" at the tightest point. It's the tightest WS-1 on a chart that was posted on 'Mike's' model 21 site. It works fine. Seems like a 'skeet' choke to me. Whoever choked the gun knew what he was doing, at least for the right barrel... Same gun has a .015" WS-2. It is a tad tight for skeet, I just load spreaders for the doubles. 'Poof'... no more target. The only time you need or want any choke in the second barrel is for doubles on 4. Why did Winchester choke so tight on the left barrel?

Reaming a WS-1 to cylinder would seem pointless, but I bet some of the WS-2 chokes have been opened. It would indeed louse up the resale value of the gun, but it would make it a better skeet gun!

Correction on "unique" acknowledged Shotgunjones -- thank you, I'd forgotten that.

The crux of my post was meant to be that opening a tighter M-21 choke to WS1 isn't the same as opening to standard SK dimensions, and requires something more than a gunsmith merely competent to do the latter.

As for whether Winchester invented it ... well, someone was the first. It's unimportant, but I'd be curious to know of earlier examples.

Jay

I like to buy original choked 21's too. I just don't think a little choke work, as long as it's done right is a deal breaker. And like SGJ said, why would anyone muck with the WS1 choke?? I sure wouldn't. But if I was looking for a Model 21 twenty ga with 28" barrels, and it was marked M/F..........but mic'd at .007" and .018", I would be thrilled!

With 30,000 examples only, it'd be ashamed to monkey with 21 chokes.
Deal breaker for me. You may of course do with your guns, what you will.

Buzz, both you and SGJ have questioned why anyone would consider changing WS1 chokes to something else. I don't see that anyone posting here has suggested doing this?? My comments were about opening tighter chokes to WS1, and I think Dick's comments were along this line too.

Dick sorta kinda mentioned that it would take a guy who knew the Winchester choke profiles to duplicate same, and of course with the WS-1 that's true.

WS-1 has more collector value than utility value if one is perfectly honest... you would be hard pressed to tell it from a cylinder bore with a standard skeet load.

I'll go Buzz one better and take my 28" 20 ga. at 3 and 7 thou, and not worry about the markings except of course to beat the seller down a couple grand for 'non originality' since if I sell it someone will do just that to me!

Silly isn't it?