doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com DS Grade LeFever

Visited my home town gun shop in Athens, GA yesterday and noticed what was, to me anyway, an interesting LeFever; a DS Grade with dolls head, cocking indicators, and Damascus barrels (serial number in the 61XXX range). All numbers matched; but I noticed that the serial number on the barrel tube was also stamped on the bottom rib between barrel flats and hanger lug in addition to its normal location on the barrel tube. The serial number stamp on the barrel tube had been partially obscured in the carding process, but close inspection of that number stamp also showed what appeared to be remnants of a letter "G". So I called Buck Hamlin, described the gun and was given the following: Such DS Grade guns, though not rare, are a bit uncommon; and this LeFever represented a gun assembled from parts and sold by Ithaca; most likely around 1920 when Ithaca was filling orders from whatever barreled action remained on hand, that this example was most likely originally intended to be a Grade G gun. The gun had 30" barrels with excellent bores and had not seen much use over the years; but unfortunately had not been stored properly so that metal finishes had turned dark for the most part (Damascus barrels could have been chain pattern; but were so dark I could not tell for sure). I hadn't seen one of these Ithaca made-up DS grade guns before, so found the piece interesting; although not so interesting I couldn't live without it.

I've seen several of these and own two of them. Most of these atypical DS grades have all the characteristics of an H grade including Twist barrels. I have not seen any with Damascus barrels from higher grades than H. All that I've seen have the LAC monogram buttplate and a full pistol grip with a grip cap.

There are various theories about why these were assembled and sold as DS grades, but none makes much sense. Why stamp a higher grade gun with a lower grade stamp just to fill an order???

I saw one years ago which I deeply regret not buying. It was marked DS, had the right barrel with Damascus pattern and the left with Twist. It had dolls head and cocking indicators. I passed because it was a well worn project gun needing total refinishing. I figured at the time it was an employee gun taken out of the plant one parts at a time like the Johnnie Cash song about the 55-56-57-58-59 Cadillac with one fin and one non fin tail light. Since then I have seen two other Lefevers with a twist and Damascus barrel combination which had been blued by the factory. I guess when an order came it it was made with parts on hand when money was tight or there was a rush order. We may think of Twist or Damascus barrels as less than steel but others years ago would not.

Dissimilar double barrels happens I think with all manufactures. What I believe happens is that when the barrels are made and struck, it is very hard to tell what pattern they might be and get mixed up in the separate bins they are marked for.
When they are ready to be joined, a worker grabs two barrels from a bin and sets them up for soldering.
Only till they are rusted will the pattern show clearly.

I would think a dissimilar set would be a bonus.

"I've seen several of these and own two of them. Most of these atypical DS grades have all the characteristics of an H grade including Twist barrels. I have not seen any with Damascus barrels from higher grades than H. All that I've seen have the LAC monogram buttplate and a full pistol grip with a grip cap".

These barrels were definitely Damascus, not Twist; and, although tough to tell, a very nice Damascus barrel set that may have been "Chain" pattern. There was no engraving, only the maker's stamp on the side plates. The gun appeared to have American black walnut, no cap round knob grip, with splinter and LAC hard rubber butt-plate. Water table clearly stamped "DS"; and the gun was tight with what would work as good shootable dimensions for me.

"There are various theories about why these were assembled and sold as DS grades, but none makes much sense. Why stamp a higher grade gun with a lower grade stamp just to fill an order???"

Would make perfect sense if Ithaca's intent was to close out their remaining inventory of the old style Lefever double gun in advance of beginning to promote their low-end Ithaca "Lefever" leader model gun.

What is a gun like this worth?

Topgun;
I highly suspect your thought of using up all remaining stock had a lot to do with these atypical DS grades. Its always easier to sell an item with some up-graded parts than with some down graded parts.
Lefevers with Chain damascus bbls are most often encountered in an E grade. I do have an F grade with them & have heard of a few others. Can't recall that I have ever heard of a G with chain bbbls, these most commonly have a two-iron bbl.

I saw that gun a few weeks ago and commented on it over on the LeFever forums. I got the same reply from those guys, most likely an Ithaca assembled piece from the parts bins. Which was a lot better than I got from the "shop expert", his eyes just kinda glazed over when I pointed out the discrepancies. An interesting piece none the less, but the price was a bit steep for my taste.

As a rule of thumb, the DS and I grade had: Fluid steel barrels with straight rib extension, no cocking indicators, round knob checkered stock and a snap on forend with no escutcheon.

Many variations to the rule exist. Higher grade features have been used on DS and I grades. However, I think the more common scenario is where all graded features are found in a gun stamped DS. This might be a situation where they had to filling orders, or maybe a customer wanted composite steel barrels on a DS grade??? About the only stand alone feature I have seen on a DS is cocking indicators. I would wager that nearly all that had composite steel barrels also had dolls head rib extensions. But, I speculate.

With Lefevers, all bets are off. I have seen guns with barrels made from one twist tube and one Damascus tube. Guns with one grade stamp on the frame and another on the barrels. All sorts of oddities.

Went back to Franklin's yesterday afternoon, couldn't hardly get into the parking lot; and when I entered the shop and asked where the naked ladies were, was told they were having their annual "Cost Day" sale. Wasting no time with opportunity knocking, I moseyed on over to the double gun rack and found the subject DS grade Lefever still available; so looking around and spotted Mark Franklin, the son of the original and now deceased owner, I informed him that, given today was "Cost Sale Day", I was prepared to pay what the gun was actually worth and not his outrageous asking (the tag said $699). So he asked me what the gun was worth and I said $450 out the door; to which he responded that he might take that offer IF I would agree to take a project double off his hands that deserved restoration (said he couldn't sell as it was) for an additional $50. So I allowed, as I already had waaaaay too many projects already, I wasn't sure; but would certainly take his counter under consideration, so show me the gun!. So Mark brings out this petite little Harrington and Richardson 20 gauge hammer gun; an example of which I don't recall having ever seen. Someone had dropped this little gun decades ago and had broken the stock behind the lock plates. Apparently deciding not to fix the gun, the firing pins were removed so that it could not be used; and the gun had simply languished in a closet since. Barrel blue is all there, bores are mint, all parts there to include the broken stock with the exception of one piece missing above the left side lock plate. This was obviously a low-end piece of Americana when new, and which piece has managed to survive in remarkable condition because of the broken stock. I obviously have no idea, but would think maybe these little H & R hammer guns are not very common in 20 gauge? Barrels are 28" and appear to be fluid steel, although not marked; and atop the short rib is stamped "20 Gauge"; so I paid the guy $500 and left with my prizes. Didn't need either one of these guns; but found both very interesting. And as I know nothing of these H & R model hammer guns, I'm hoping Brother David Noreen or Brother Doc Drew will see this post and enlighten me as to when this piece may have been made; perhaps post a pic of an old ad, etc.?
Thanks in advance for any information shared
Tom

Well here goes. As originally introduced the little H & R hammer gun was offered in 28-gauge and .44 caliber. A 1909 vintage magazine ad --



By the 1912 SD&G catalogue they had added the 20-gauge --



By H & R Catalogue No. 13, circa 1920, the line is filled out with the addition of the 14mm/32-gauge --



By H & R Catalogue No. 15, circa 1924, the little hammer double is gone.