doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Build Quality and Union Armera vs Grulla Armas

I don't think I see what you are referring to Ted. The top lock looks caked in old grease to me. What do you see that's inferior about that lock? I see it has no intercepting sear, but it's more complex than say an LC Smith lock.

Well, the missing sear, and the egg shaped holes. The tumbler also appears to have a pad, that can be replaced as it wears, but, it doesn't look to be fitted all that well.

Best,
Ted

Ted,

Sorry and no offense, but you seem to have stepped in it on this one.

Your egg shaped holes and poorly fitted pad on the tumbler don�t exist; they are artifacts of old, very dirty, grease (kudos to Buzz, who called recognized the grease). And the lock isn�t missing a sear. Not all guns have or need secondary sears; this lock is from a live pigeon gun in which secondary sears can be a liability.

In terms of the �price point thing�, and �quality you can produce for the price you are getting�, the gun to which that lock belongs was proofed in 1946, used to shoot competitive live pigeon for almost forty years, and still functions quite reliably. It�s a hoot to shoot trap and wobble doubles with it. It originally cost less than $100, equivalent to a little less than $1000 in 2015 USD. How many other values as good as that have you seen recently?

Kyrie,
Funny, I could have sworn I started out with the caveat of it being an internet photo!

But, no offense taken. I would like to see a decent photo of it, in a clean state. But, even if the gunge on it is grease, and not the fault of the builder, but, whoever maintained it, I'd still probably pass, if the seller took the time to show me that, for fear of whatever that grease did to the wood. But, you are right, that wouldn't be the lockmakers fault.

If we were both around in 1946, and each had $100, you could have bought that gun, and I could have bought a 29" barreled 28 gauge Darne R10, with two sets of barrels-in a case.
I think I would have done a bit better, investment wise, but, I suppose we'd both be too old to enjoy the guns now, anyway.

Fun to think about it.

Thanks for the insight.

Best,
Ted

"used to shoot competitive live pigeon for almost forty years, and still functions quite reliably."

That's some demanding sport on equipment and competitor alike and it would be an interesting read to see the different types of Spanish shotguns used by the competitors.

There are just a huge number of live pigeon matches on YouTube. Here are a couple as examples:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFrQMgPwqKs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WP4MKe-OD3E

Who used what kind of gun was idiosyncratic. People used what they had, what they could afford, or if very well off a gun made to whatever specifications they thought best embodied a competition gun.

Just about every maker who was around during the height of the pigeon shoots had a model with the features they thought made an idea competition/pigeon gun. The AyA model 56 is an example of a purpose designed competition gun. My own favorite (favorite enough that I bought one) is the Model 229 made by Hijos (Luis y Lazaro) de Juan Jose Arrizabalaga.











When I bought the 229 I actually had a choice of that gun or a similar AyA 56 (cased, two barrel set, etc). Same price, either gun. I picked the 229 because it had better engraving :-)

All Spanish shotguns fall somewhere on a continuum that runs from light game gun (think AyA model No.1, 12 gauge with 2 inch chambers at about 6 pounds total weight), through a medium game gun (think AyA model 53), to a heavy competition gun (AyA 56, Arrizbalaga model 229, etc.). The difference between guns at the extreme and mid point on this continuum are hard to see until example guns can be seen side by side. Here are, side by side, a heavy competition gun (Arrizbalaga model 229) and a mediu game gun (AyA model 53):



Interesting, no?

I have Terry Wieland excellent book on the Spanish shotgun but I can't seem to find very many other books concerning the Spanish built shotgun. He sort of hit on all the major players but left a huge gap with the smaller makers and the suppliers of locks and other components. An interesting story but why not more of it as the Spanish are key players in this game?

PM sent; start here:

http://personales.jet.es/rafa/b_punzones.html

Kyrie, thanks for the side by side pics of the 2 different weight guns. I found that most informative.

Mergus

You are very welcome.

As an aside, be aware that not all Luis Arrizabalaga (maker mark JAM) model 229 shotguns were built as pigeon guns. About a year ago I came across a JAM 229 on Guns International that had been built as a light game gun.

This kind of thing can drive people accustomed to the American business model of gun making to distraction. Here in the USA we walk into a gun shop, say "I want a some maker model something-or-other", and that's the end of the conversation.

But when dealing with a Spanish artisanal shotgun maker and saying I want a model something-or-other shotgun is where the conversation begins.

Here is an example of what I speak of.

One of the fellows on my forum is in the process of having his dream shotgun made in Spain, and he and I chat as each milestone in that process passes. When he chose the model of gun he wanted and sent a deposit the maker immediately came back and remarked the buyer hadn't specified whether he wanted that model made on a light, medium, or heavy action. That's right; the maker needed to know whether the buyer wanted his something-or-other made as a light game gun, a medium game gun, or a heavy competition gun and couldn't start making the gun until the customer told him what kind of a gun he wanted.