doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Thos. Forsyth hammer gun

I recently inherited what may or may not be an English SXS 12 ga. side lever double hammer shotgun from my father-in-law. It has been passed down from father to son for at least 3 generations. I have tried to research as much as I could and the information below is as accurate as I can determine.
The gun is marked "Thos. Forsyth London (Laminated Steel) on the rib at the breech end of the barrels and has "Forsyth" engraved on both sideplates. It has Birmingham black powder proof marks from the 1868-1875 period and the water table has Birmingham view marks. The back action hammers are non-rebounding. It is obviously not a fancy gun, the engraving is fairly modest and shallow.
I am not interested in the value of the gun, only the history if available. It may even be a JABC, although I can't find anything pointing obviously in that direction.I have no intention of firing it, it is a wall-hanger only. Any information would be appreciated.

If the gun checks out to be sound, I can see no reason why it couldn't be shot with appropriate low pressure loads. It looks not bad from the pics provided.

The proof marks are British not Belgium

So that takes it out of the JABC category

Looks nice, get the barrels checked out and if they pass muster, get some low pressure loads and enjoy

Very nice. Here's a pic to give you an idea what the pattern of one-iron Laminated barrels look like. In the picture, the barrels are etched to bring out the pattern, but not yet browned at that time. Yours look like they might be the same, as the visible markings are fairly angular. However, It's possible they are really Twist, (Skelp) and merely labeled "Laminated"



If it's in usable condition, go shoot some quail with that old girl!

Here's more info and pictures of Laminated barrels from DocDrew's site:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1__gn3XKjLX_4V0LguzoVGBwJRFS6SxsWGzUwHq93neo/edit

Regards
Ken

Thanks, Ken. As you likely noticed, the only area of the barrels where the pattern is readily visible is around the proof marks, although I can just make out a parallel pattern on the rib just in front of the breech, similar to the pattern in your photo. At the moment I am leaning toward the "twist" construction, particularly the "Birmingham stub" as per DocDrew.
I suspect that the gun may have been produced earlier in the period rather than later, as the forend is attached with an older-style wedge (or key) reminiscent of the percussion era. As I understand it, other methods of attaching the forend evolved in the early 1870's, and this style faded out.





As far as shooting it goes, the action is a little loose (or, more precisely, a bit off face) and the bores are pitted a bit more than I would be comfortable with in any of my modern firearms, although I have a Remington Model 6 .22 with a truly horrific-looking bore that shoots quite well. Still, it wouldn't hurt to have the piece evaluated. I'll have to see if there are any qualified smiths in the Albuquerque area - somehow I suspect they are rather thin on the ground out here.

Here's a tidbit from Purdey history:

"Within three years, James had risen to Head Stocker at Manton�s. Talented and ambitious in 1808, after learning all that he could, James left to join another famous gunmaker, Forsyth at 10, Piccadilly. Dr Forsyth had invented a new kind of lock, which worked by detonation. James was to spend the next four years there, as stocker and lock-filer."

http://www.purdey.com/heritage/purdey-history/

More Forsyth:

"The Great Exhibition of the Works of Industry of All Nations, held in 1851, featured guns by firms founded by Greener, Egg, Manton, Boss, Lang, Forsyth and Westley Richards. Although the American Colonel Samuel Colt�s revolvers caused the biggest hullabaloo at the time, it was the exhibit of a relatively obscure French maker named Lefaucheux that would prove most prescient. Casimir Lefaucheux showed a single-barrelled pinfire shotgun with hinged, drop-down barrels, which would provide the inspiration for a new generation of British gunmakers."

Read more at http://www.thefield.co.uk/features/british-gunmakers-21594#6ohZLbii9xB61ezW.99

A repro label:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Forsyth-Co-Gunma...=item4d2ebe0c38

Dr. Alexander Forsyth's life is detailed in Forsyth & Co.: Patent Gunmakers by Neal and Back. Included in that book is a Forsyth family tree that covers the period of 1692 to 1939. There was no
"Thomas" during that period. Dr. Forsyth died in 1843. I don't think he ever married or had any children.

The Last posted address for Forsyth as a Gunmaker was;
Alex Forsyth and Co; 8,Leicester Street,London.1850-1852.
Your gun was made in Birmingham circa 1880-1900 and has no direct connection with Alex Forsyth.
Most likely Thos; Forsyth was an Ironmonger[Hardware store]located in London. Ironmongers in this era often sold guns bearing their name. To accomplish this orders were placed with the Birmingham trade ,with specific instructions regarding the engraving/application of the sellers name.
One other possibility exists in that certain nefarious members of the Birmingham trade sold spurious guns bearing the name or part thereof of defunct famous makers for example Egg or in your case Forsyth.
W.W.Greener in his book ,The Gun, page 415 details the extent of the trade in guns bearing spurious names.

Perhaps Thomas Forsyth was a retailer who sourced guns "from the trade" in Birmingham, yet had his business in London. That would explain the London address on a gun with Birmingham proofs.

It still leaves the repro trade label for "Forsyth & Co" with a London address question open. It looks like "Alex Forsyth" evolved into "Forsyth & Co".

Regards
Ken