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Ted,
What a gorgeous girl. I want a new 4 legged hunting buddy so bad I can hardly stand it.

I have never owned nor hunted with a "big range and run" dog. Is that a characteristic that you prefer? How does that play out in thick cover?

Great progress Ted. Now it's just a matter of counting the days until Fall..

Bill,
There are many opinions on range and run. I am no expert, but, I know what works for me, and has worked for me in the past.
Setters and English pointers, are air scenters-they locate the bird from the bird's scent in the air. ALL other dog breeds are ground scenters, and locate the bird's scent on the ground. Air scenters should be able to cover more ground, quicker, and at further range than other breeds. I believe they can and do find birds that ground scenters miss, too. But, my experience has been, if a setter does not have the natural ability to work off a good distance from you (range) at a good clip (run) that trait can't be developed in that dog. A dog that has the trait can and should be able to learn to moderate both range and run in heavier cover. Pointers and setters should not be "boot polishers", dogs that work at or near your feet.
I had a Gordon Setter who could work in closer in heavy grouse cover, and also burn a field and lock up on point on a pheasant 125 yards out. I had an English Setter that really couldn't. I also had experience with Irish Setters that had, or didn't have, the trait. That is not to say the dogs that lacked range and run didn't turn out to be OK bird dogs-they did. But, the big range and run dogs were just better.
My dogs are about 85% pet, and the rest is weekend warrior hunting dog. They usually lack a little polish (example, I don't break them to wing and shot, as I prefer them to be heading in the direction of the bird I just shot at, especially pheasants) and while I owned a superb grouse and pheasant dog at one time in my life (the Gordon) truth be told, good grouse dogs are hard to find, way harder to find then good pheasant dogs. My last English had roosters pretty well figured out, but, never really caught on with grouse.
As you might imagine, that is just the tip of a very big iceberg, and I bet fist fights have developed over differences in opinion on good and not-so-good dog work.
A very good book I can recommend on all aspects of the setter experience, is "The Field Gordon Setter-The Black and Tan Bombshell" by Suzanne and Norman Sorby. It is my bible on training and all other aspects of living with dogs, and transfers well to other hunting/pointing breeds. The airline lost your pooch on a flight? This book will tell you where and how to start looking.
It may be out of print, but, Mr. Sorby recently passed away, and I heard a rumor it might be printed again. It is well worth finding.
I've heard some bad-mouthing of the Sorby's over the years, always from people who weren't as successful with their dogs as he was with his. Mr. Sorby held an advanced degree in nuclear physics, and ran a particle accelerator at one point in his life, and walked away from it to work and breed his dogs.

He may have been the most intelligent man I've ever known.

Hope this helps.

Best,
Ted

I think what you're describing is covered by the term "A Big-Going Dog", a term I heard or read many years ago. I classify my Setter as the same thing. It's been a big difference for me, as I had Springers for more than 20 years, usually hunting a brace that worked like windshield-wipers right in front of me out to about 30 yards. It's been an adjustment, although a pleasant one. He's easy to track when out for Pheasants, but if I take him into the woods for Grouse, I think I'll use the beeper collar I've bought just in case. I just had him out with me when mushroom hunting, and he was out of sight quite a bit, but I could usually hear him working in the woods all around me.

On his daily runs at the Fairgrounds, he's become an expert on Robins.

Regards
Ken

Ted,
my Springers hunt the air. My old gal that passed three years ago had an amazing nose. It took me a while to figure out how she was working birds but by air was the answer. I first noticed it on cripples when she was very young but by her second season that is how she worked all her birds.I killed many a memorable bird over that dog while she had her head high picking up the scent on the wind. Never say never or all when it comes to guns or dogs. Best regards,
Steve

I find the differences in Pointing Styles in Setters to be intriguing. Some seem to point with their head high, others with the head and back straight with the nose pointing at the bird, (usually with one front leg lifted) and yet others that go into almost a crouch, with the legs bent. The crouch type sometimes depicted well on guns like the engraving on the Baker shotguns. Mine has a tendency to crouch, causing me to be on the lookout for a restorable Baker Grade B which shows the same type of point.

Regards
Ken

Steve,
I only know what I read about dogs like Springers, since, I don't own any. All dogs are capable of both kinds of scenting, from what I understand, but, not all dogs will learn both. I've seen a few Springers hunt, and remember they spent a lot more time with their noses in the ground then my dogs did. Please don't think I'm saying that is bad, I'm not, it's just what I've seen.
Setters were a recognizable breed 1000 years ago, and have had people breeding them for the purpose of finding birds from before that time until now. A dog like the Labrador retriever, descended not all that long ago from a breed of dog that was not having it's nose considered as it's most important virtue, the Newfoundland. My experiences in the field with individuals of both breeds, have left me startled at how much sharper a setters nose is. My dogs have literally been on point in a ditch, as a buddy's Lab has walked past, on the road.
Can a Lab be a great bird dog? You bet. Maybe the best. But, I've been on the setter route for a long time now, and enjoy their traits. The good nose is one.
There is a style of dog for everyone who likes dogs, and what suits me, might bring damnation from others.
Ken, I saw a quote once, "Give me a horse that will walk, and a dog that will run", probably from a setter or pointer field trialer who had just had a bad day, that describes range and run pretty well. It can be a pretty fast moving game. I don't do the horse part of it (I hate horses) but, I slog along behind a setter in a WMA about as well as anyone, I guess.
I also remember a statement from the late Mr. Sorby, in one of the conversations I had with him when I was being trained to hunt birds with the setter he sold me (No, that is not a typo-I learned so much from that dog). "You can't develop in a dog, what isn't there to begin with".
That phrase, given off the cuff to me, has stuck with me for a long time.
I'm nobody's expert on training dogs. But, I enjoy good dog work, and a good time spent afield in the company of dogs, good, and otherwise.
If I didn't own dogs, I might not bird hunt.

Best,
Ted

Enjoying the thread. I've only trained and hunted Labs and love the heads-high. I gave up on whistles and arm-waving retrieves in marshes a long time ago. From my experience, retrieves are quicker if dogs left to figure it out. We think we know where the cripples went---and we don't.

Ken,
How 'bout a picture of that rascal? Do you need the starting pistol back?

We are pretty much done with it.

Best,
Ted

Ted, my dog is last days; I didn't hunt last season. Without a dog and gun, I'm lost.

You've got a winner. Man makes the dog.