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Originally Posted By: rabbit
I don't have much trouble understanding how the "irons" or composite rods could be sized, thinned, stretched between rolls. How precisely are the edge welds achieved once the spiral is on the "negative draft mandrel"? Is there an unstated suggestion here that somewhere in the northeastern U.S. existed a powered hammer akin to a predecessor of the Rotoforger which Ithaca used on the steel billets for the 37. Different ends here I admit. If the output of Belgian hammer jockies wasn't up to he demand, where's the equipment or the record of the equipment that replaced them? The patent drwg of the faux applique machine is interesting. Where's the drwg of a machine that could make the real McCoy?
jack

Jack,

Good questions. From my very limited understanding in reading some of Claude Gaier's work. The relationship between the US and Belgium can be traced back to the American Revolution. (Belgian Gunmaking and American History by Gaier.) Gaier notes the huge volume of firearms destined for American shores after the revolution began. We are aware that during the American Civil war there were official and some not so official observers from Europe. One of the lessons that the Belgians took home was the impact of mechanization in the making of firearms. Several companies took this to heart. Gaier points to FN and Pieper as taking up the "new way" of using factories and machines. ("Quatre siècles d'armurerie liégeoise" by Gaier. Also "Les hommes, les armes et les machines du Chevalier Pieper & Cie 1859-1957" by Michel Druart.) This was stepped up over time. We like to think of a Belgian cottage industry in sporting firearms. This was also true. Gaier notes the there was almost a class hatred between the cottage firearm maker and the factory worker.

I stated all that for a reason. I have pictures of both methods. The end of damascus production in any reasonable volume was some time in the 1920's.

Since the formation of the EU all patents are now under one authority. I have tried to use their web search engine to find exactly the sort of patents you are asking about. Unfortunately, my attempts are futile and frustrating. There is something I am not getting, but the results are always worthless. I guess, I should start trying to pry that information out of the American patents. You are correct, some one was making these machines. If we can identify an American source and date it, we are closer to understanding.

Also, Robert's caution about damascus for blades is correct. It is a different product. Which is why I did not attempt to track that Rochford reference above.

Pete

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Originally Posted By: Doug Mann
I've followed this thread with some interest. I would like to suggest that anyone that is interested in damascus steel try to get hold of a copy of "Damascus Steel" by Manfred Sachse. I am unaware of any book that covers the subject more throughly than this one. The copy that I have belonged to Oscar Gaddy and I purchased it from his wife after he passed away.

I'm not sure whether it is possible to scan and post some of the pictures that are in the book but I believe that the information in this book may clear up some of the questions about damascus manufacture.


Doug,

Please do post some. If any one is looking for this book, it was published in German and English. The English version is difficult to find. There is one up on eBay now.
http://cgi.ebay.com/GERMAN-DAMASCUS-SWOR...8QQcmdZViewItem

I am not connected to this auction.

Pete

PeteM #41525 05/29/07 06:29 AM
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Oh I get it I guess. No American damascus barrel production (my mistake) but immense secrecy in Belgium to hide the "new ways" from their own Luddites/labour protectionists. Must have succeeded since there appears to be an entire mechanized industry which never happened.

jack

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My next Model 12 project gun will have a Damascus magazine tube. No worry about blowing up the gun, and a legitimate "new project" for Sherman Bell. "Are Composite Magazine Tubes Safe with Smokeless Loads?"

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Rabbit, There were damascus barrel makers in America, but very few...relatively none, when compared to Europe and England...during the hey-day of American double production it seems as though not one American damascus maker could not compete with the Europeans makers in both numbers or cost..American makers chose the fluid steel alternative, as the Europeans eventually did.
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Also
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Didn't all heavy industry, in Liege, crash during WWI or WWII, or was Liege spared?
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Although I have no saved proof to offer, I was told, that after WW II, a few Val Trumpia gunsmiths (desparate consumers of Liege forgings) bought out Manufacture Liegeois's drop forges, dies, or fixtures. Shortly afterwards, the Val Trumpia double shotgun production numbers climbed like never before while the Liege smiths re-tooled.
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If the Liege sporting gun industry wasn't interrupted during WW II, why then would the Italian gunsmiths be so desparate as to buy their tooling?

PeteM #41561 05/29/07 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted By: PeteM


Since the formation of the EU all patents are now under one authority. I have tried to use their web search engine to find exactly the sort of patents you are asking about. Unfortunately, my attempts are futile and frustrating. There is something I am not getting, but the results are always worthless. I guess, I should start trying to pry that information out of the American patents
Pete

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Pete...If you could narrow it down at the US patent office, there will probably be a European classification number to cross reference...But I won't waste my time on such a pursuit...I've been searching for years for any related patent to the venerable Belding & Mull without success. There are more dispensing and metering threads than I can view. The machinery patents that you seek could be buried in any number of classifications with all the various sub-catagories or threads. Could be in a winding thread, could be in a seam welding thread, or it could be in a manufacturing process thread. It's probably in several threads. But who knows...you might get lucky by patent searching the names of known makers of damascus/twist steel. If that doesn't work, it's going to be hard row to hoe. Maybe Gaier's book will offer some search names...Bob

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Quote:
There were damascus barrel makers in America, but very few...relatively none, when compared to Europe and England...during the hey-day of American double production it seems as though not one American damascus maker could not compete with the Europeans makers in both numbers or cost..American makers chose the fluid steel alternative, as the Europeans eventually did.

I think part of this has to do with profitability. If you are going to start making barrels, then you will be looking to the rifle and hand gun markets as well. From at least 1890 to 1920's American policy implemented a series of tariffs on imported goods. So, the Belgians, English and German barrel makers had to be offering a unique / affordable product. In addition, makers like Heuse had American agents competing for business here.

Quote:
Didn't all heavy industry, in Liege, crash during WWI or WWII, or was Liege spared?

From the little research I have done. After WWI there was a great outcry about German atrocities in Belgium, mainly forced labor. I do not believe the factories themselves were damaged. After WWII the a lot of the heavy industry of Belgium was damaged by Allied bombing and the ground war that ensued. So there had to be a major rebuilding effort.

Quote:
If the Liege sporting gun industry wasn't interrupted during WW II, why then would the Italian gunsmiths be so desparate as to buy their tooling?

The Italians were in even worse shape after the war. A lot of damage was done during the German retreat and again the bombing campaign.

Hopefully, some one with more detailed knowledge of this period will respond.

Pete

PeteM #41578 05/29/07 01:19 PM
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Pete...I know nothing of the import tariffs but this....and I am reluctant say this, as it will surely be interpreted as "fighting words" by some...but here goes...
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Back in the 19teens an immigrant Austrian apprenticed gunsmith by the name of Fred Adolph of Genoa and Rochester New York imported Austrian and other high grade guns into America. He advertised that he made the guns to cover the fact that he was in fact importing the guns in pieces in order to skirt the import tariffs. Because of the Fred Adolph stories, and the fact that his close personal friend, Chas Newton (a lawyer and owner of Newton Rifle Corp.), also tried to follow suit as a barrel importer for his own factory, I think barrels (and parts) were exempt from any stiff tariffs...I can elaborate on the Newton barrel importing effort if you would like.
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As for the Italians being heavily damaged, maybe the Val Trumpia region was spared becuase of it's location away from the shores, way up north. By the way...I was told that as a general rule (not always), you can locate family origins by the last vowel. Families whose name ends in "o" or "a" are from sothern Italy (traditionally)...Family names that end in "i" are from the north, like Bernadelli, Zanotti, and Beschi...just in general though

Last edited by Robert Chambers; 05/29/07 01:39 PM.
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Originally Posted By: Robert Chambers
Back in the 19teens an immigrant Austrian apprenticed gunsmith by the name of Fred Adolph of Genoa and Rochester New York imported Austrian and other high grade guns into America. He advertised that he made the guns to cover the fact that he was in fact importing the guns in pieces in order to skirt the import tariffs. Because of the Fred Adolph stories, and the fact that his close personal friend, Chas Newton (a lawyer and owner of Newton Rifle Corp.), also tried to follow suit as a barrel importer for his own factory, I think barrels (and parts) were exempt from any stiff tariffs...I can elaborate on the Newton barrel importing effort if you would like.


The tariffs started out as a protectist move for the American farmer. They had the opposite effect. McKinley gained national recognition with his 1890 tariff. The tariff wars in Congress raged for almost 30 years. The actual tariff rates and those items on the list changed back and forth. I believe that the barrel tubes incurred 1 rate, while finished barrels a higher rate. One of Wilson's campaign planks was to do away with the tariffs, which to a certain extent he did.

A Puck cartoon attributing the Republican defeat to the McKinley Tariff. With McKinley as Napoleon leading his troops out of Russia.


I am surprised there aren't more stories about "black market" gun parts. Yes, what more do you have about Newton.

Pete

PeteM #41590 05/29/07 03:16 PM
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I like to think that I have the most of the big picture when it comes to the the evolution of the Newton barrels. I've been a long time wildcatter, shooting a .220 Dean (blown out swift), .256 Sabad (Vom Hofe), .30 Reis, .256 Newton, and I recently acquired a ".30 Nedgley" barrel by Neidner Rifle Corp. but I haven't started on it yet. The area where I live is wildcat country, maybe because of Newton's influence on local interests, but whatever the reason, Western New York has been the home of well over a dozen wildcats. Most notably the 25.06 (.25 Newton to .25 Neidner to 25.06 Rem) .338 Winchester (.33 Newton with a belt) and 6.5 06 (.256 Newton)
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That being said, it's important to note that Newton abandoned the .25 caliber bullet for the 6.5, not because of the liability of the .25 getting into the wrong guns as some have suggested, but because Mauser, Steyr, and Sauer where already tooled for 6.5. ... WW I, and the tremors that led up to it, created enough difficulties, that ultimately Newton changed horses mid-stream and abandoned importation from Mauser and Sauer, and just imported a rifling machine from Steyr (in 6.5). The machine arrived in several shipments of parts and upon assembly, no one could get to work correctly. In a letter to Newtons investors, he explained that one of his large expenses was the high cost of paying his "model maker" (Emil Flues) to work exclusively trying to make the machine work. After months of wrestling with it, Newton brought in a barrel expert (Harry Pope) to work out the remaining kinks...which he did...and to this day, if you know what your looking for, you can still buy a Newton rifle, hand finished by Flues with Pope rifling.

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