doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Reinforcing Stereotypes, Failures & Anomalies

Holy smokes guys, stop with the flag waving will ya. Mass produced guns for the American market at a price that the average farmer or coal miner could afford. And lots of them. That's what we wanted and that's what we got.

And what, we produced doubles for a few decades and you're trying to compare them to someone who has produced them exclusively for centuries.


You sound like the newly graduated college kid that shows up for work and tries telling everyone their jobs.

I doubt you will like it, but, it is honest as the day is long. You can learn a lot from the guy who has to fix 'em, if you are willing to shut up and listen.
Most guys aren't.


Best,
Ted

If "we are willing to shut up and listen" will you regale us with your wife's opinion of the Model 21?
Why so nasty Ted?

Thank you for your response Dewey. I am profoundly unqualified to defend the mechanical defects in Alexander Brown's design, but would make a couple of observations, which are discussed in The L.C. Smith "Farm Implement Grades" article by me & Dr Jim, Double Gun Journal, 2014, Volume 25, Issue 2, Page 113.

1. Price comparisons in the 1897 Sears Roebuck & Co. Catalogue:
Parker GH - $51.20
Smith No. 00 - $25
Smith No. 0 - $31.75
Ithaca No. 1 - $26
Remington 1894 A Grade - $33
Baker B Grade - $31.75
Fine guns listed included:
Daly 150AE at $129 and 250AE at $190
Greener No. 3AE at $187.50, Facile Priceps at $93.75, and No. 6 Forester $69.95.
More comparisons here:
https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1OTND2bQH0vhlbCf7c2sN8H1vzmT7xagUSXhewGB03SE

2. Despite the defects, I'm still using an "agricultural grade" and well used 12g 1906 OO and a 1906 16g OE to shoot 2-4 rounds of recreational skeet every week. Dan Lammers replaced one bushing, tuned the locks, and glasbedded the head of the stock (mostly because it's also my big country pheasant gun) on the 12g; the 16g is mechanically original. I enjoy both almost 110 year old guns, didn't pay much for either, hope they'll last a few more years, and that is what matters at this point in my life.
I'll freely admit that my 1913 Fox Sterlingworth will probably last longer however.

In the words of a respected but eccentric deceased British gunsmith who lived not far from Dewey, "I never saw a Model 21 that would not make me $700." I may be mistaken about the amount.

My wife doesn't know anything about model 21s. If she did, I'd put her on and let her tell you, herself. Then, you would say she didn't know what she was talking about.

Which, is exactly what has happened to Dewey, right here, when he has done the same thing, in the past.

I know Dewey's opinion of both the model 21, and the LC Smith. We have talked at length about those, and other designs. I agree with him on many things, but, our interests are different enough that it isn't 100% agreement. His standards are higher, no question about that. If I was going to venture outside of my comfort zone on a different type of gun, I'd definitely listen to what Dewey had to say before I parted with cash. He has very good reasons for his opinions about various guns. Like many things in life, it isn't "this is the best one of all" type of deal, there are compromises, design flaws, workable shortcomings, and, out and out crap.

A lot of other guys, many of them right here, have an opinion, but not with that level of thought, or scope. They don't fix them, or make them pretty and better functioning, after all. Dewey does.

My comment was a generality, aimed at no one in particular. Remember the lyric "All lies and jest, still a man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest"?

Never more apparent than on a hobbiest board, on the net.

Best,
Ted

Dewey, thank you for your honest assessment. I like American guns out of emotional attachment, but i am sure other sidelock actions (holland & holland for example) are undoubtedly mechanically superior. Noone has ever brought back or mimiced the LC for good reason. That said if i could get my hands on my grandfather's crown grade i would trade several of my Jules Bury made guns for it.

There comes a point when shooting is more about feeling than reason and popularity is ultimately about emotion.

I respect your opinion, and moreover your experience.

Many people have asked me for my thoughts on the Smith, mainly because it's the only "good" double that I will no longer work on. That is the main reason for posting my findings.
It was not meant as an indictment of anyone who likes Smiths and I'm not trying to convert anyone away from the gun.
Many espouse opinions about certain guns being "the best" simply because they're American (or British, or German, etc.) and they refer to legend and lore to make their case.
Nationalism, patriotism, faith and other such things have no place in the objective evaluation of a device's design. There is an old saying that "everyone is entitled to their opinion". I personally don't agree with that. I believe that everyone is entitled to an informed opinion. To have an opinion on a subject with no information is to simply display one's ignorance.

Regarding my "expertise", I do not refer to myself as expert at anything. I would say that I'm competent.

Regarding the Model 21,

- The dovetailed lump barrel construction adds ZERO strength materially to the barrel assembly because more often than not the actual fit of the dovetails is quite sloppy. The soft solder joint does most (if not all) of the work of holding the barrels together.

- The rib and forend lug joints fail with amazing regularity. In 25 years, I've stripped and relaid as many 21s as Smiths. Trust me that's a lot.

- I don't think that any well-designed gun should have ANY parts that are held in place by staking alone.

- I personally don't consider the 21 to be "classic" double, it came on the scene very late, is completely coil-spring driven and is made of much more modern materials than the other American doubles (these are good things). It's really a modern double.

I know all about the destruction tests of the 21 against the other doubles and all I can say about that is it's absurd.
It's comparing apples to oranges, and no one shoots proof loads regularly. The 21 is a modern gun designed to shoot modern ammo and the "test" (if it ever really even happened as they say) proved nothing except that all of the guns tested were indeed stronger than they needed to be, for the ammunition and use for which they were designed.
But Americans seem to be obsessed with "strength", whether real or imagined, so I'm sure that that also helped to build the model 21 legend.
If you like 21s, that's great, they're a good, serviceable gun, but to compare them to classic-era (or English) doubles, is an unfair, uninformed comparison.

Just as with my Smith posting, I did not mention aesthetics or handling. These areas are entirely subjective and I am certainly no one to tell another what they should (or should not) like.

Treblig1958's last post summed up the situation quite succinctly.

Thanks Dewey.