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0 members (),
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Apr 29th, 2024
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 14,128 Likes: 198
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 14,128 Likes: 198 |
Mr. Vicknair may express some disrespect for American guns, but he has addressed my particular problems with these guns as well as problems with high grade Italian sidelocks and London made sidelock guns. My list of "solved problems" with various guns thrown at Dewey is a long one. My very impressive big Vicknair project gun is pictured on another site.
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 582
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 582 |
Canvasback,
Too bad that more Manufrance Ideals didn't make it to the USA. Lots of them still in France, but it's not easy to get them imported, unfortunately, as you and I have discussed. James and I are hard at work correcting this shortcoming.
Tolerance: the abolition of absolutes
Consistency is the currency of credibility
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 48
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 48 |
Wingshooter16 That's sounds very intriguing! Tell me more. Are you taking orders?
Men build too many walls and not enough bridges. -Isaac Newton
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 35
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 35 |
One other question for Dewey regarding the '21 forend lug joint failure.
In your opinion, is the main cause of this failure due to people putting the barrels back on the gun without having the hammers cocked?
Any comment appreciated.
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,755 Likes: 30
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 1,755 Likes: 30 |
Dewey,
sometimes people just don't like to hear the answer. I think you presented an assessment of a design clearly and based on your experience and being your opinion. You were asked and gave forth.
while others may disagree with your assessment, they are entitled to their opinions just like you and I are.
What I don't understand is why folks here want to call you a heretic because you have given what you were asked.
I say "good job".
Brian
LTC, USA Ret.
NRA Patron Member
AHFGCA Life Member
USPSA Life Member
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,158 Likes: 1154
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,158 Likes: 1154 |
We're putting Dewey "through the paces" with all these questions, but I have so many, and it's so rare to be able to get opinions developed through long experience fixing these guns.
If we've not worn our welcome too thin, Dewey, I have a question about your opinion concerning the failure rates of V springs compared to coils. Most today assume that coils are superior, due to their ease of manufacture and their so-called ability to continue to function even after breakage. Perazzi guns continue to use V- springs in their locks, and get hammered for it by K gun shooters. I'd be interested in your opinion of that.
Kim Rhode, Olympic shotgun medalist who has shot Perazzis for over 16 years, stated that in shooting 500-1000 rounds a day for 16 years she has never had a malfunction in practice or in competition. I have never had a breakage in the two I have owned. My idea, and it's only an idea, is that the life of a V spring is much more highly dependent on the quality of the spring than with a coil spring. Said differently, it's enormously easier to produce a quality coil spring than a quality V spring. Am I all wet?
SRH
May God bless America and those who defend her.
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 6,487 Likes: 394
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 6,487 Likes: 394 |
Wingshooter16 That's sounds very intriguing! Tell me more. Are you taking orders? Email me. Address is in my profile.
The world cries out for such: he is needed & needed badly- the man who can carry a message to Garcia
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Dewey Vicknair
Unregistered
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Dewey Vicknair
Unregistered
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One other question for Dewey regarding the '21 forend lug joint failure.
In your opinion, is the main cause of this failure due to people putting the barrels back on the gun without having the hammers cocked?
Any comment appreciated. There are multiple causes of failure in a non-fusion type joint. Some of them are as follows: - Poor fit of the parts to be soldered, in a non-fusion joint the strength of the assembly will be at its maximum with a gap of about .001-.004". As the gap between the parts grows beyond that, the strength of the joint will drop off sharply. At some point the strength of the joint will be no more than the strength of the solder (or braze) material itself. This is NOT the problem with the Model 21. All of them that I've ever relaid had very well-fitted forend lugs. - Poor "wetting" of the area to be joined, any surface contamination will prevent the wetting and thus, the bonding, of the contaminated area. This is why an acid-based flux is used for the tinning stage. All traces of acid flux are washed away in a solution of baking soda and water before a coat of rosin-based flux is applied to all tinned surfaces. The ribs , lugs, etc. are then fixtured together and the rosin facilitates the joining of all of the tinned areas with no danger of corrosion. - Improper solder or braze selection for the particular application. (see below) - Degradation of the solder, THIS is where I believe (I must STRESS that this merely a theory of mine, I do not present this as fact) the Model 21's problem lies. All of the 21s that I've ever relaid exhibited solder joints that were grainy, crumbly whitish powder. This is exactly similar to the way really old pure lead bullets look. The solder that is used in the assembly of doubles is generally much heavier in tin content than lead. I suspect that Winchester used a solder that was just the opposite. Whether this was a mistake or it was done purposely as a part of an effort to apply the absolute minimum amount of heat to the barrels during manufacture, I can not say. Many 21s have beavertails (as do many other guns) and the inertia of the beavertail, combined with the fact that the shooter generally actually holds a forend of this type, conspire to greatly stress the forend lug joint. A 21's forend will always be easier to install when the gun is cocked but doing it without the locks being cocked should not place any undue stress on a PROPERLY soldered forend lug.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,703 Likes: 103
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 7,703 Likes: 103 |
Despite the unfortunate disagreement in parts of this thread, one thing has become completely apparent; Mr. Vicknair is one of the stars of this bulletin board. Thank you for sharing your experience and knowledge with those of us who just want to know!...Geo
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 916 Likes: 1
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 916 Likes: 1 |
One other question for Dewey regarding the '21 forend lug joint failure.
In your opinion, is the main cause of this failure due to people putting the barrels back on the gun without having the hammers cocked?
Any comment appreciated. There are multiple causes of failure in a non-fusion type joint. Some of them are as follows: - Poor fit of the parts to be soldered, in a non-fusion joint the strength of the assembly will be at its maximum with a gap of about .001-.004". As the gap between the parts grows beyond that, the strength of the joint will drop off sharply. At some point the strength of the joint will be no more than the strength of the solder (or braze) material itself. This is NOT the problem with the Model 21. All of them that I've ever relaid had very well-fitted forend lugs. - Poor "wetting" of the area to be joined, any surface contamination will prevent the wetting and thus, the bonding, of the contaminated area. This is why an acid-based flux is used for the tinning stage. All traces of acid flux are washed away in a solution of baking soda and water before a coat of rosin-based flux is applied to all tinned surfaces. The ribs , lugs, etc. are then fixtured together and the rosin facilitates the joining of all of the tinned areas with no danger of corrosion. - Improper solder or braze selection for the particular application. (see below) - Degradation of the solder, THIS is where I believe (I must STRESS that this merely a theory of mine, I do not present this as fact) the Model 21's problem lies. All of the 21s that I've ever relaid exhibited solder joints that were grainy, crumbly whitish powder. This is exactly similar to the way really old pure lead bullets look. The solder that is used in the assembly of doubles is generally much heavier in tin content than lead. I suspect that Winchester used a solder that was just the opposite. Whether this was a mistake or it was done purposely as a part of an effort to apply the absolute minimum amount of heat to the barrels during manufacture, I can not say. Many 21s have beavertails (as do many other guns) and the inertia of the beavertail, combined with the fact that the shooter generally actually holds a forend of this type, conspire to greatly stress the forend lug joint. A 21's forend will always be easier to install when the gun is cocked but doing it without the locks being cocked should not place any undue stress on a PROPERLY soldered forend lug. Dewey, thank you for taking the time to explain in thorough detail. Jay
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