doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com What is the best Side by Side made in the World?

Just wondered what is considered the best side by side that is made in the world today. Not a machine made shotgun or double rifle, but handmade, hand-fitted and hand-stocked side by sides. Please post pic's if you have any.

Regards

M.L. Hipp

The one I can't afford. :-)

Because of reverence for age and length of building side by sides to the exclusion of vitually everything else, the English build the best. Plus the English gun has been tested in Africa, India and similar continents against the most dangerous animals and they have been tested in the most rugged conditions. Purdey, Boss, Atkin,Grant & Lang, Webley & Scott, Rigby, they have the history tracing their roots back to the 17th century. But good lord are they expensive!!!
All the best

I believe that all guns are machine made today to some extent. What seperates the best is the actual man hours involed in the finishing and fit of the gun.

There is no one name answer to your question. There are 60+ gunmakers who can make you a "best" gun by anyone's standards. Generally, they work as a world trade these days; barrels, actioning, stocking, engraving, finishing, etc. all done in different countries. Such guns are usually +$50,000 and many months in the making. Some of the very best craftsmen are literally booked for life. There enough people "voting" for their favorite craftsman at $50,000 - $100,000+ a pop to keep all these 60+ guys in business; as I said, no single answer.

Were I "voting," I'd "vote" at Hartmann & Weiss.

Didn't Fabbri make a few SxS guns. If so, they would likely be contenders. What's the deal with the "Stainless steel and Titanium alloy" guns bannered on the website?

OB

Granger!

Flli Rizzini R1 is probably the best SXS made today

CJ


http://www.williamlarkinmoore.com/illirizzini.html

http://www.williamlarkinmoore.com/product_details.asp?id=1421

Agreed, perfection can be equaled, but it can not be surpassed. It would come down to asthetics and personal taste from those makers who currently offer a "best gun".

Fabbri, Holland & Holland and Purdey are some that are right up there. The absolute finest probably were made many years ago. As Kevin said, none of them are completely handmade. Few, if any, were truly handmade 100 years ago, either.

I would throw Michael Louca of Watson Bros hat in the ring. I have handled one of his weapons, and it was special. Some say the top italian makers are right up there today.

Without question Fratelli Rizzini, Fratelli Piotti and Ivo Fabbri. I would give FAMARS an honorable mention too.

Guns at this price should have a long well known history - to all shooters.
After all, your paying for the name also!
Boss, Purdey and H&H come to mind, and are not sounding too gibberishly foreign when showing the boys at the VFW Hall's turkey shoot.
For that kind of money, London is still the best place to shop.

How about Stoeger or Baikel?

Just kidding!

Greg

Maybe Ed Landers will start making guns...

One would have to include Peter Hofer as one of todays top double gun makers, I second Hartmann & Weiss also. I would guess if you had the money, any of todays top quality double gun makers would build you "todays best gun". OB, I think Fabbri advertised that gun for somethinhg like $250,000 for the Safari Club Int auction maybe. Anyways, if I had the money it would cost to buy the worlds best double, Id much rather buy a ton of other rifles and shotguns.

Please. The Italians cannot make a gun that compare with anyone from Brit background. I'd take a Nelson or a Brown over and gaudy EYEtalian thing.

OWD

After all, your paying for the name also!
only the ego driven care to pay for a name on anything...
The very best gun, is the one you have made for yourself, You can go crazy thinking any other way..

chux, if you buy a Boss, Boss will be chargin' you for their good name...and if you buy a Boss, you'll be wanting that good name.
So, you'll be payin' for name.
It is said, anyone can serve you up a best gun...Why then would a Boss & Co, be three to four times more expensive than a Army&Navy best made gun?

A Greener would take some beating?

OWD, I can understand that there are those who do not like or appreciate the asthetics of some guns. However, asthetics aside, makers like Fratelli Rizzini produce guns that are equal to perfection along with some of the more well known English names. Fratelli Rizzini puts about 1000 hours of hand labor into their guns.

The RBL, of course!

Thorny, look back at the original post. You won't buy a new A&N these days, so that puts them out of the running. Back when they were selling guns (they never actually made any), however, you could get some pretty nice stuff from them--for less than a comparable Purdey or Boss would have cost you. Of course Purdey and Boss made best guns only, whereas the vast majority of the guns A&N sold were the much more utilitarian boxlocks.

I've been to the H&H works, and they certainly use some pretty sophisticated machinery--but a lot of the work is still done by hand.

It's the last file stroke that makes a best gun.
I think the "best" guns vary in quality based on whether you are the makers patron or not. If you aren't buying alot of them (and they know who you are) you won't be getting that last file stroke on a new gun.

I vote for longevity. Some of these companies have created a process, and have lasted past many generations. Knowing they'll be there comforts me a great deal. After that, it's pick what you like. I like deep relief engraving, so that shortens the list considerably.

Saying Italian best guns can't compare to English best guns reveals only a lack of knowledge of either. It is one thing to look at someone elses best gun order and say you don't think it compares to something else you have seen, quite another to step up to the plate and select one's idea own idea of a best gun, and then, of course, pay, and wait for it. I've handled some Granger guns that were simply breathtaking, with ornamental stock carving that was not of my taste, but, that didn't mean it they weren't best guns. They were. They just weren't done in my taste. If I had the coin, I'd be over with Richard Levi today, telling him how to build my gun, without any stock carving, of course, but, I don't. I had dinner and a night on the town with the man, and he is a great individual, who can see to it that you get exactly what you want in a best gun, that would easily compare with anything built anywhere else in the world, at any time in history.

The wild card, of course, is will you actually get what you pay for. I've also seen some English guns that were supposed to be best guns, that simply weren't-Henry Ford IIs pair of 1947 vintage Purdery's were sub-par in finishing. Might just be me, but, I get a little sad when I see a Boss with the 1/2 inch tall letters on the side proclaiming "Boss's Patent".

Of course it's a Boss-look at the house engraving. Why did they feel the need to screw up that lovely rose and scroll with block letters on the side?

The Italians can build anything you want, to any level you want. So can the French, the Germans, the English, and the Spaniards.
Not everyone can pay a skilled team's wages for several years labor. Looking at someone elses best gun order, and thinking it isn't the best gun for you misses the point a bit.
Best,
Ted

Gentlemen & Ladies, I am ask this 'Question" often. I try to break it down this way. Country of Origin, be it Austria, Germany, Czechoslovakia,Finland, Prussia, Sweden,Russia,Poland,Hungary,Denmark,Spain,Italy,North America, South America, Brazil,Mexico.India,China, Ireland,Norway, Scotland, and of course,"Merrie Olde Mecca'....'OOppss,England, North of Birmingham, Birmingham Proper, South of Birmingham,London. Now I know 'Webers Scholars' will be 'Critiqueing'(SP) this, sorry If I left a few countries out,(Like Pakistan, Ethiopia, Kenya)But...Would'nt one have to 'Pull each piece completely 'Down'to be able to evaluate the standard of Craftsmanship??? Then of course we would have to determine if the work of "THE DECORATORS" could be, in any way classified in the"Made in the World"....Following is a'Quote from a Seasoned Gunmaker' (From the Old School of'Hacksaw & File')We Incidentaly,served our time together at Purdey's,1953-59......"Fortunately I have some very nice customers. They know their guns and appreciate that the quality of a gun is what is behind the engraving- while beautifully executed engraving will always enhance a gun, ultimately it is the quality of overall workmanship which matters. We strive to achieve the highest possible standards". Peter Nelson. Trevallion/cc.

The best Side by Side is the best you can afford...no doubt the best made is English.

Dave,
I was at Yorke and Wallin last Tuesday, Mark Wallin says hello and Mark Curley who was 'the boy' when you visited asks to be remembered to you. Quote "Is he the nice man with white hair? He's alright, he is."Obviously he's a man now and they are doing okay.
Regards,
Salopian

Dear Crossedchisels-You Brits still believe the wogs begin at Calais. I assume that there was some purpose to the lack of inclusion of France in your list.

John, Certainly not "Intentional"...Still suffering some Reaction to "Beers on the Beach" 1800 hrs. 6-6-07.and the sore shoulder from the 12.9/16th stock length of the WW2 Enfield. 21 rds. Had to use the Left hand to raise the Glass for the next 2 days!!!!!Have always had french firearms in the dt collection.Plus 'Have been known to 'Whack a few splinters off the odd french walnut stock-blank" in the last 54yrs. dt/cc.

Couldn't be a better gun in the world then a Luciano Bosis, when that good looking gal that translates for Luciano at The Vintage Cup is displaying the lockwork!!!

Mr. T, I am pleased to find that the ommission was not intentional. How could it have been with a name such as yours that has more than a touch of the Norman. Regards

Mr. T, I am pleased to find that the ommission was not intentional. How could it have been with a name such as yours that has more than a touch of the Norman. Regards

Why then would a Boss & Co, be three to four times more expensive than a Army&Navy best made gun?
Same reason a 100 handicap golfer buys all the latest and "best" golf equipment,,because the companies know someone will...does not make it the best for that person...

A Boss gun may not be the best idea for the clerk's wage - but for the chaps that could!
When you travel with that crowd, a Boss is the thing to have.
Much less, and you'd be looking for those odd days with those hanger-ons.
It is an expensive sport, and you must have the trappings to play.

When asked, if he had ever considered a Boss, King George VI, king of England, replied: "A Boss gun, a Boss gun, bloody beautiful but too bloody expensive."
What else can you say?

I agree with George Rex. The best side-by-side made in the world is the one that fits and shoots so well for us that there's no hesitation about what gun is going out the door with us next morning. With me it's the 20ga SKB and 12ga Army&Navy. All the rest is ego and cosmetics.

Mr. Brown: With this, I concur completely. I have had several Merkel sidelocks crafted in 28 gauge, beautiful, but to shoot a brace of quail, or a string of doves, its the 147E that came out of the closet. On that particular gun, the swing and point makes up for all else.

To me, a true "Best Gun" is the one that a person can shoot the best!

Jameister, thanks, it's always nice to know others feel similarly on these things.

Also no need for formality with me. Respect for age and politeness is a true mark of civility but we've been together here long enough to enjoy the intimacy of friends.

The "true best guns," are tested time after time, year after year on the estates, by those who could shoot and those who could afford to shoot.
Those who have the lessers guns, were the hired help!
...and how keen of a shot can they be - when they've only shot a keeper's day or two a year hmmmmm?
Now, I'm all for the commoner, but lets get real!

. . . and Nixon bowled some good lines always using the same alley. Nothing like the groove of driven shooting! Is the helmet still over there on the other thread?

jack

Rabbit, I know your trying to tell me something!
But....
Owd Lowell doesn't have his thinking cap on today!

Lowell, I can't allow you to say potAHto too many times without countering with potAto. Now I've dOne it; signs of Homeless orthography syndrome.

jack

I hate to admit...I must be tOO hard headed also.

When you travel with that crowd, a Boss is the thing to have.
Much less, and you'd be looking for those odd days with those hanger-ons.
It is an expensive sport, and you must have the trappings to play.
People that think that money makes class are truly clueless...If you feel this way then I feel sorry for you.

"The "true best guns," are tested time after time, year after year on the estates, by those who could shoot and those who could afford to shoot."
I handed my Mod. 42 to a bird boy in Argentina and he could kill 25 out of a box and he couldn't afford a gun, but he could shoot. My point, to him that pump gun was the best.

Blindfolded you pick up a Rizzini and a Boss you probably couldn't tell the difference or comparing any of the top Belgium, France, Italy and German makers in that test. However, who said "One test beats a thousand expert opinions". Only the English gun has been tested time and time again, over the centuries in the most rugged of conditions against the most dangerous animals and in the most brutal climate any firearm can endure. No other firearm manufacturer can even hold a 'candle' to the history of the English gun.
All the best

Blindfolded, I could tell the difference between a Boss and an Italian gun. Hell, I could tell the difference between a Boss & a Holland just by picking it up (even if blindfolded). A Boss has a look and feel that's all its own. So does an H&H Royal, a Purdey, a Lang, etc.

All those guns have their own looks. And if you want that look with the maker's name on it, you'll pay for it. Are they better? The market sure thinks so. Guys dream about owning a Purdey and they big the big buck for them.

And they all feel better than a Fli Rizzinis. Over and over people tell me how great those guns are, but every one I see leaves me cold.

OWD

chux, we should be thankful for the uppish class - without them, there'd be no best guns - just stew-pot shooters. There are some circles where money can't pave your way. Where the newly rich are nixed and bane, and only old blood counts.
I'm neither, so don't feel sorry for me!
Class is everywhere - one man's ceiling, is another man's floor.

I'm trying hard to think this thru, Lowell. Vickie R. shopped at A&N. And Georgy 6 took the Filene's Basement approach to Boss value. The Royals must really enjoy playing against type.

jack

Your trying hard to think about this!
What about ol' Lowell?
Rabbit, what is u talkin' 'bout?

OWD, You're not getting my point, if we argue about fit and finish of best guns we all have our own preferences and opinions, which is fine. But the one thing we have to agree on is the history and the rich heritage of the English gun. No other gun has been tested like the English gun.
All the best

If this is true how do you explain Beretta the oldest manufacturing firm in the world? I think it can be safely stated that they have stood the test of time. What constitutes "best" in a shotgun also applies to other categories such as auto,wines,spirits and women* and,of course,is highly subjective and based upon everyones individual whims and predjudices.
With the resources Beretta has at its disposal they could build shotguns unrivaled by anyone else in the world should they chose to do so and have deep enough pockets so they could afford to sell them as loss leaders.
Jim
*My personal preferences are Porsche,Fine Bordeaux Wines,Single Malt Scotches and I'll skip over woman since this is a public forum.

In my previous post I said the English concentrated on the double barrel almost to the exclusion of all others. Beretta has been around the longest but they did not concentrate exclusively on double barrels as heavily as the English have. And its their history of field work that makes the English the best.
All the best

I must attempt to explain, LG. Put the coupon clipping Royals aside for the moment. Let's get back to Nixon the kegler and his private lane. There is always a hometown, homefield advantage. It doesn't always pay to want to play baseball with the Japanese. So the Brits were the evolutionary cap on the doublegun and they had their way for awhile shooting big cats and whatnot round the old empirial playground with the bore rifle or whatever. And their way of shooting fish in a barrel is socially and sartorially bizarre and intriguing There are other playgrounds. I understand that Sarasqueta could also be considered the gun of Kings--in pre-Civil War Spain. Is it a copy? Certainly. Still their "best" in a domestic product. You want innovation rather than slavish copying. How about Lefever? Bit of evolutionary energy there. Is an Optimus Grade a best? Why not? Might be our national best. Need to get the frogs, wogs, Yanks, etc. to stay in the home pond long enuf to do some accounting in a less global context. In fact, the French don't seem to have a bit of problem with knee-soiling insecurities; they may have gotten their lunch eaten several times over as a result but a certain portion of uncritical, self-centered autonomy is necessary to an identity as a nation or as a person. Can genius coexist with genius or does it always have to be last man standing?

jack

I'm not voting...I'm just adding a historical note...as no one has mentioned it so far
.
I thought Griefelt engineers made a special point of setting the high water mark in the 1930's, by copying the best British sidelock known, combined with the most luxurious materials selection and heat treating processes, using alloys generally not available to the British. It became a national pride sorta thing to showcase the Germans world leadership role in metallurgy...I don't think many were made...and many German collectors prize them above anything British (like Kuchenreuter)

I'd have to vote for a particular gun. That Purdey serial #6 (if memory serves right) is a double flinter by James own hand. It probably killed a million birds and the stock was in about 4 pieces before renewed by that crazy Brit on this site. I have to say there is something simply glorious and haunting about holding a Manton or Purdey double flinter.

Comparing a Best German SxS to a Best English SxS is like comparing a Volks'vagen to a Bentley.

London has put out the best gun by the thousands over the years, each one the very best it could be. Here in American you can count these ultra high grades(Optimus)on your hands and toes.
Practice makes perfect in the best gun trade.

If Volkswagen is not your cup of tea, try Porsche.

The guns be darned. The "marketing of the guns" has been mastered by the Italians, as is suggested by Researcher. "Yes, ma'am, it would be a pleasure to examine your locks."

For smooth bore it's easy, the one with "soul" of Jos Manton and Col Hawker. It's the most "Ghostly" of the bunch! Rifles are tricky I'm still reading the Rifle....by S.R.Truesdell and The Rifle Story by Walter. It's going to take plenty of time for me to answer this question.

How (why) is it that brand preferences in character, tradition, reliability, history, quality, and other similar traits differ so much in the minds of different people with similar backgrounds in the shooting sports? Why is it that some of the guns in my collection mean so much to me but are just so much iron to some of my buddies who also follow this hobby? The same situation exists with their guns in my mind. Others, like "Researcher", have a great appreciation for the salesman!

We "differ so much" because of where and how and with whom we grew up, what we read and saw in our formative years, our notions of the authentic i.e. reproductions of any kind are abhorrent to me; to carry a Purdey would be a conceit. This may have greater influence than sharing similar backgrounds in the shooting sports. Thank god others think differently.

You mean there is something bettern than a Model 21?

Now Now:
From a reliability perspective which one would you rather be driving if you were going to make a trip coast to coast?
Jim

Lemme see, Toyota Camry? Twin 50s on a monopod would be a good choice for some purposes.

jack

Ferrari from May to August.

GerMan guns mAke me think of CuUuckoO clOcks, rEd slate FFireplace and a fest inspiring ChristmaS tree. I get that warm und fuzzy feelin.

King, "to carry a Purdey would be a conceit."
Well then, you place too much on the gun.
To carry a Sterlingworth would be a badge of honor then?
I've a AH Fox Sterlingworth, AH Fox AE and a Remmy 1894 AE that I romanticize about the way it used to be(in my mind anyway).
But!
For sheer gunning, its hard to beat the London gun.

I can't imagine that someone who has a knowledge and an appreciation for high quality guns with historical significance and is a heck of a shot in the field and moor (and on the ring) would be much criticized if he appeared on a shoot with a fairly high quality gun of any maker or origin, as long as the barrels were side by side. Some shooters of extremely high ability may even be excused for appearing with a gun with barrels one above the other. In other words, a shooter of high ability and knowledge about guns of quality may be within the realm of acceptability if he were to appear at a shoot with a well performing boxlock Greener. A poor shot with no credibility would be "undergunned" with a high condition Boss. Just my opinion, because I'm probably not going to get into the conflict. I'll be here at home.

"And many German collectors prize them above anything British(like Kuchenreuter)."
I would think they would Robert - being German collectors and all.
The guns from the crypto-obscure makers are a hardnut to peg for stardom, as they just fade away.

Lowell, you're pretty close to it. I probably put too much on the gun, in either a positive or negative way, and I'd consider the SW more a badge of my honour or loyalty, at least. And it is romanticism, preferring our guns to the better ones but, as I said on another thread, my 12 A&E is one of my go-to guns.

Credibility is what the vanity set goes for, the old boy who's in the field day after day - week after week doesn't place much on credibility. 'cept at the bank and farmer's supply.

Tell you what King....your spot on!
My American guns, what they are, are the light of my life!

Sign of my dedication that I can pronounce Luciano Bosis let alone recognize one a blind taste test. The best must be among the ones I have the glossy brochures for. How bout y'all. Tripping over beatupworkaday Bosises, are we?

jack

I'm sure dem make a nice enuff gun dear ol' Rabbit!
Izzy French, or Italian?

So you like the Italian guns but the German Cars? What about Ferrari- not counting the ugly Enzo and F50, they make/made some beautiful cars.

I love Italian guns (and gun salesmen). However, I am a bit bland on Italian cars. Everyone I have known who had a lot to do with Italian cars either kept them running or restored them for a living, a very good living. I can't remember anyone that I spent much time with who only spent money on them.

Well, I thought Italian, but so far from my experience, I'm not certain. I know I prefer Blue Cheese sometimes; Ranch others.

jack

A Redneck in clean clothes!! Imagine that. Come on, Jack, get back in gear.

Eightbore,

In those days we were shooting NSSA targets at Andrews AFB, and the Harry Wright up at Loch Raven I had an Alfa Romeo, though as I recall Bonnie Jean was usually driving it and I had the old Ford F100.

Dave

StormGSP:
I have been a long term admirer of Italian cars from afar; Ferraris* in particular. However if I had to make a coast to coast trip I'd Select the Bentley mentioned above over a Ferrari every time if those were my only two choices. That's what they call in Statistics "Minimizing the Maximum regret". I've owned several German cars over the years from inexpensive(VW) to expensive(Porsche) ones and they have all been reliable.
But we digress: The "Best" double I own from a reliability perspective and a "Get er Done" capability ala Larry the cable guy is my 1923 vintage Sterlingworth. Oh: I own several more expensive guns but this Sterlingworth has never once let me down nor made a trip to the gunsmith for repairs in 40 years.

*How many of you would be prepared to spend around $3,000 on a "routine" service interval tuneup as I've been told this is what it runs at the Ferrari dealership??
Jim

wow this post has gotten interesting..I have no "British" best guns, I rather enjoy my lc smith 20 and fox 20 and 16..I prefer to spend my money on Mustangs (cars) and Harley's...and fly fishing and hunting trips..to each his own, thats a best.

It was a Gene Hill essay that planted the sidelever Grant hammergun in my mind as 'the best' for me. It seemed I'd come up with this desire because of my good taste, breeding, etc, but recently I was re-reading Shotgunners Notebook and found the thought I'd repeated as my own. Gene's writing is so good and my memory is so bad, whose idea it was got mixed up.

I'm sticking with it, I think he was right.

Lets see now: Driving across the USA I would want a car bred for the Autobahn and tested on the Nurenburg Ring. But no low slung sporter with stiff suspension as they are too hard to get up out of or ride for long stretches with old legs stretched out like that - guess I would prefer a Mercedes AMG 12 cylinder sedan.
Best gun choice, since I see little point in spending $100,000 to get something designed to be understated I think a Filli Rizzini sidelock with bulino engraved vignettes covered with scroll on the rest of the metal plus the most extreme wood finished to show that wood (not some reddish brown varnish) to best advantage would suit my tastes. Actions the same as the English guns and finished every bit as well. But I could be sidetracked by a Lindner Daly Diamond Regent Grade in 20gauge however they are outside today's question.
Rifles are another story. Double rifles are nice but I see no point to a rifle if it isn't a one holer as in all bullets in the same hole. An American made bolt on the Mauser pattern as executed from scratch by Rudy Wells (late from Prescott, AZ) would satisfy my requirements for the Best.

Footnote:
All checkering to be done by Americans.

No doubt the cost of upkeep is expensive, but if you can afford one, the fees are probably small in comparison. The Enzo's keep going up in value, as people keep wrecking them. I heard the cost of an oil change for an Enzo is $750. My favorite cars are Aston Martin V12 Vanquish, BMW M6, one of the new Maseratis- the name is escaping me. Anything is better than the car I got 2 days ago- its my first car a $1500 Kia- its pretty rough, but its got 4 wheels.

As far as best guns- i'll let those with more experience say something. I keep my goals small for the time being. My uncle has a number of bests from both Italian and British makers. I hope to see him around the 4th of July. Ill ask him.

Great Topic.

I like your taste in cars- I saw two CL 55 AMG's today- I love those. I do, respectfully, disagree with you on the rifle comment. From a competition standpoint- I understand what you are saying, but for the hunter, it really isn't necessary to have a one holer. One of my favorite DRs was an incredible gothic piece with full engraving of Goblins and Dragons. I can't remember who the dealer was, but it was a helluva gun. I believe it was an H&H.

Odd lot here, you bat around names of world renown cars and such, but take a pass on the prestige of Boss, Purdey and Holland & Holland.
Makes you wonder hmmm?
If there was a door prize of a Purdey Extra Finish, and a Filli Rizzini, I'm betting 100% of the crowd will have their eye on the Purdey.
Bet!

Unobtaineum cubed.

jack

Guns of this price class must have more than fit and finish going for them - its the intangibles.
Is there a coffee table book to go along with your new Rizzini?

There is Gucci, Prada, Armani,......., and when the Romans had an empire the English had ......? Simply put, English culture is overrated in America. Anglo things represent "stale" boredom to me, and I'n not ready for the grave just yet.

Since someone brought cars and other "bests" into this, I will have to go with the 1962 Ferrari 250 GTO for my Best Euro car, 2007 Ford GT for Best American car, 2007 GMC for Best pick-me-up truck, a H&H 20g Royal, and finally ... drumroll please ... Paris Hilton for Best drama queen.

CH - you will have to retract that last statement!! PH has announced that she is going to quit playing dubm!

when the Romans had an empire the English had ... mud huts and blue paint.