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7 members (David Williamson, Kip, battle, fallschirmjaeger, Jimmy W, Jeremy Pearce, 1 invisible),
424
guests, and
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robots. |
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Key:
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Forums10
Topics38,443
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Most Online1,258
Mar 29th, 2024
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,982 Likes: 106
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,982 Likes: 106 |
"Why not just order what you want from CSMC?" Personally, I don't think the CSMC replicas will ever attain anywhere near the collector value of an original Winchester Model 21. I would never consider a CSMC replica as an investment grade gun. Only if I could buy one for a MUCH cheaper price than an original, would I ever consider one. However, that is unlikely because CSMC has priced their replicas in the stratosphere. I've heard this crap 'ad nauseam'. The Model 21 being currently produced by CSMC is as much if not more a Winchester Model 21 than a C7 Corvette is a replica! Whose discussing investments? If you consider everything in life that you purchase an 'investment', so be it, but I purchase what I want in life and use it. I'm fed up with 'experts', 'collectors' and whatever, pronouncing that it ain't a collectable or worth what I paid for it! I drive new Porsche's because they are so much better than older models, that there is not even any comparison possible! CSMC Model 21's are as good if not better than any Winchster Model 21 ever made. The only area for discussion is engravers because certain engraver's have passed but there are new engraver's just as talented to be had. And you can get a 'Baby' frame Model 21 in a weight suitable for a light upland gun, that Winchester never made. I'll put my CSMC 'Baby Frame' 28 gauge Grand American up against ANY Winchester Model 21 ever made. The price when compared to any bespoke gun anywhere in the world today is actually comparable and in a few cases actually looks reasonable. So when someone mentions CSMC and Winchester Model 21, let's lose this attitude! So if you want what you want, order a CSMC. If you want what the 'experts; will tell you to want, find a Winchester Model 21 that is just right for you.- Richard BTW I have a CSMC bespoke Fox 16 gauge DE Special that's better made and engraved than ANY Fox DE I have ever had in my hands. Haha there Dick. We are all entitled to our opinion just like you. By the way, the C7 Corvette is made by General Motors, so it is not a replica. The CSMC Model 21 is made by Connecticut Shotgun and not Winchester, and is therefore a replica. And, by the tone of your condescending statement and defense of CSMC, I'm sure you paid BIG money for one their high dollar and overpriced replicas.
Last edited by buzz; 01/01/16 12:26 PM.
Socialism is almost the worst.
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Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 547
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 547 |
fyi...i like old new haven winchesters knowing that my uncle and friends most likely or maybe touched them at least once during construction. my uncle worked in the finishing dept. i like knowing a gun was made by family members and friends i knew and that it was made in my hometown area.
maybe thats why i like shooting high standards too.
i was a member of the seymour fish and game club for over 27 years. many old winchester employees shot there along with the now defunct bethany winchester club, across the street from my uncles farm.
the value of winchesters is more than function and quality to me. its more a personal thing.
someday i will own a m21. even if it is refered to as one step up from a 311.
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,935
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2006
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"The Model 21 being currently produced by CSMC is as much if not more a Winchester Model 21 than a C7 Corvette is a replica!"
As noted, the C7 vette is made by Chevrolet, who also made the C1-C6 vette. The CSMC M21's are made by Winchester. Is that really a hard concept to grasp?
As for recoil pads.....they're just yucky. If a man can't take the recoil of the gun he's shooting...he needs to try a lighter gauge or maybe even taking up needlework.
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,982 Likes: 106
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,982 Likes: 106 |
"The CSMC M21's are made by Winchester"......Huh???? You lost me on that one?????
Socialism is almost the worst.
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Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 547
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 547 |
galazans ruined their repro pad. they say its the same as early dark red ones, but it not. i called them out on it and they told me they have a chinese contract to make them....and they come out red/orange.
if i wanted to make them red again, i was told to use varnish.
not this fool.
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Joined: Dec 2015
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 547 |
galazans bought all of winchesters remaining custom shop stock of spare parts.
parts made by winchester.
assembled by csm.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 869 Likes: 2
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 869 Likes: 2 |
Over a decade ago I was asked to evaluate a 16 ga M-21 field. Brought my bore gauge and went over every nook. Original, sure, but what a unappealing 21. Finish to fitting to inletting - nothing to hold a candle to most any CSMC....or even to a prewar/transition gun.
It's not just 21s, or even just Winchester shotguns. Most late pre-64 models leave alot to be desired prep and finish-wise. This does not mean they are less valuable to a collector. Most VR M-42s are similarly afflicted, but they bring big coin. And why not? Collecting is mostly about condition and rarity.
About a year ago, Poulins auctioned a bunch of 42s. There were five superb post-market engraved guns. Not one went much within $2.5k less than a late postwar SR skeet gun that was as much a dog as that 16 ga 21. Lousy metal prep, mediocre inletting, but - yes - high original condition.
Nobody was wrong.
I don't get arguments such as we are seeing here. If you are a collector, you prioritize collectibility. If you are a shooter, you prioritize other things. The mistakes are made by collectors who cannot recognize original condition, and by shooters who desire their bespoke guns be appreciated by collectors.
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,557 Likes: 89
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,557 Likes: 89 |
Haha there Dick. We are all entitled to our opinion just like you. By the way, the C7 Corvette is made by General Motors, so it is not a replica. The CSMC Model 21 is made by Connecticut Shotgun and not Winchester, and is therefore a replica. And, by the tone of your condescending statement and defense of CSMC, I'm sure you paid BIG money for one their high dollar and overpriced replicas. Parker Bros. shotguns not made in Connecticut are not Parkers? Foxes not made in Philadelphia are not Foxes? CSMC doesn't build "Winchesters", they do however build Model 21's Sorry Buzz but you sound like "sour grapes" to me. I don't recall anyone asking YOU to buy THEM a gun. Perhaps if you trade in your baseball cards, cash in your S&H Green stamps, have a bake sale and conduct a car wash you too could have some of that "BIG money". Until such a time, maybe you could lighten up a bit on those who choose to spend THEIR hard earned money as THEY see fit.
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 916 Likes: 1
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 916 Likes: 1 |
I hope I have this right, leaky memory and all. If someone knows otherwise, please correct me.
Before CSMC began building their M-21, they first made Winchester branded M-21s under license from Winchester. As I understand it, the license limited CSMC to building only the highest grade Win. 21s, and Tony G. introduced the CSMC M-21 to build all grades and reach a wider market. I think CSMC is still licensed to build the Winchester branded M-21 in Grand American grade.
I believe they also are still licensed by Winchester as the authorized Win. M-21 custom shop and service center. About a dozen years ago they did some custom work on my 16 ga. M-21 and sent a report of the work to Cody to update their records for my gun.
Jay
Last edited by Gunflint Charlie; 01/01/16 02:37 PM.
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,982 Likes: 106
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,982 Likes: 106 |
I believe you are wrong re the license. Ask Paulene Muerelle. She worked at Winchester. Personally, I could give a hoot how you guys spend your money. If you read my earlier post I said personally I would not do it. And like you, I am entitled to my opinion and I said before I wouldn't even buy a box of shotgun shells from CSMC. I meant it then and I mean it now, personally.
Socialism is almost the worst.
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