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Forums10
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Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 906 Likes: 30
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 906 Likes: 30 |
RevDocDrew, Have you ever seen any pressure curves with black powder vs the modern powders typically used for low pressure loads such as 800X, imr7625 etc? It would also be interesting to see the curves of RST's or polywad as well.
It may be in another thread and I missed it.
Bill Johnson
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,127 Likes: 1129
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,127 Likes: 1129 |
Thanks, Miller, I felt it had to be in a confined space. But, it's more than being hard to ignite, evidently. Interesting that it performs so much differently when unconfined.
SRH Deflagration ? Evidently, outside the confines if a shotshell. But, not when confined inside it. SRH
May God bless America and those who defend her.
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,398 Likes: 307
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,398 Likes: 307 |
Bill: the pressure (vertical axis) and time (horizontal axis) numbers are quite similar in these 3 graphs. Transpose the 3 Dram Black Powder curve over the other 2 graphs. It peaks about .75 millisecond. Alliant e3, Red Dot, Green Dot & Unique all peak before .5 & obviously much higher pressures Possibly Hodgdon Clays vs. BP Red Dot and PB (no longer available). I think this was Neil Winston's work Alliant data for 1 1/8 @ 1200fps 12g Alliant e3 - 17.2 grains = 10,950 psi Red Dot - 18.3 gr = 10,300 psi Green Dot - 21 gr = 8900 psi Unique - 22 grains = 8900 psi Green Dot and Unique pressure curves are indistinguishable.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 622 Likes: 1
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 622 Likes: 1 |
Bonney, et. al.- I mentioned using modern 2-3/4" Fiocchi loads in my damascus gun. As per Sherman Bell (double Gun Journal series on "Finding out for myself"), I have long forcing cones in my Francotte. That, according to Bell, who has pressure tested various nitro loads, is a recommended practice for shooting 2-3/4" shells in damascus. The Bell series of articles began in about 1999 and had at least eight editions. Required reading for old gun users.
Bell did a destructive test comparing steel to damascus barrels in I believe, Parker guns of similar vintage and good condition. The damascus gun blew it's first barrel with a load of about 29,000 PSI. For what it is worth.
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 231
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 231 |
Drew-- it looks like 3f black powder developed about twice the pressure of 2f in these charts. 1. Am I reading this right and 2. Do we know which granulation they used back in the day? If it was 3f that would seem to alleviate concerns about using low pressure smokeless in composite barrels.
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Joined: Aug 2013
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Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 388 Likes: 1 |
Which graph are you looking at judge ? Just so we know.
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743 |
Note that while both listed loads of black used 3 drams, the 3F load was pushing 1Ľ oz shot while the 2F one was pushing 1 1/8 oz. The heavier shot load would account for part of the pressure increase along with the finer granulated powder. A third factor which can enter is they were taken at a different time & place so actual powder components can play a part as well. Quality of the charcoal used is a major factor in black Powder quality. I seriously doubt it is safe to say that switching from 2F to 3F will normally double the pressures if all else is equal.
Miller/TN I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 231
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 231 |
Bonny -- The first graph and the third in Drew's posts. about 9k vs 4500 psi. If black powder loads pushing 9000 psi were regularly used in Damascus barrels (big if) that's similar to a lot of modern smokeless loads. Just saying. I do recall Bell's articles suggesting the black powder of old was stronger than the 2f we use today.
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,398 Likes: 307
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,398 Likes: 307 |
Outing: Sport, Adventure, Travel, Fiction 1889 Al Bandle, of Cincinnati, on Christmas Day defeated the famous shot, Captain A. H. Bogardus, by killing 100 live birds straight to the Captain's equally remarkable record of 95. Bogardus shot a 12-gauge L.C. Smith gun, hammerless, 7 lbs. 12 oz. weight and shot 4 drams American Wood powder in his first barrel, 1 1/4 oz. No. 8 shot in first and 1 1/4 oz. No. 7 in second, backed up with 3 1/4 drams Laflin and Rand Orange Lightning powder. Bandle shot the same make of gun, 10 gauge, and used, first barrel, 4 drams Wood powder, second, 4 drams Laflin and Rand "F.F.F. extra" powder, No. 7 shot.
Black Powder Pressures: 3 dram / 82 grains FFFg 1 1/8 oz. (1200 fps) is about 5000 psi. 1 1/8 oz. 3 Drams (83 gr) Curtis & Harvey’s No. 4, T.S. Black Powder (similar to FFg) was about 6500 psi. 3 3/4 dram GOEX FFFg with 1 1/4 oz. (1240 fps) is about 6000 psi. 4 drams of FFFg / 108 gr. with 1 1/8 oz. (1420 fps) is about 7000 psi.
1895-WWI Smokeless Pressures were similar to that of shells available today: 12g 1 1/8 oz. 3 Dram Equivalent of BULK Smokeless was 6500 - 7500 psi. 1 1/8 oz. 3 Dr. Eq. of DENSE Smokeless was 9000 - 10,000 psi. 1 1/8 oz. 3 1/4 Dr. Eq. BULK Smokeless was about 8500 psi. 1 1/8 oz. 3 1/4 Dr. Eq. DENSE Smokeless was 9500 - 10,500 psi. 16g 1 oz. 2 3/4 Dr. Eq. BULK Smokeless was about 7000 psi. 20g 7/8 oz. 2 1/2 Dr. Eq. BULK Smokeless was 8000-9000 psi. 7/8 oz. 2 1/2 Dr. Eq. DENSE Smokeless was about 11,000 psi.
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,398 Likes: 307
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,398 Likes: 307 |
From Sporting Guns and Gunpowders: Comprising a Selection from Reports of Experiments, and Other Articles Published in the "Field" Newspaper, Relative to Firearms and Explosives, Volumes 1-2, 1897British 1 1/8 oz. & 1 1/4 oz. Service Charge pressures + 10% for modern piezo transducer numbersNo. 4 is not equivalent but is similar to FFFg BP Curtis and Harvey’s No. 2 (“T.S.2”) was a fine grain fast burning Black Powder somewhat similar to GOEX FFFg that produced pressures substantially above that of the standard proof Black powder. "E.C." and "Schultze" were initially 42 grain = 3 Dr. Eq. 'S.S.' was Smokeless Shot-gun and was discarded as pressures were excessive in loads above 3 1/4 Dr. Eq.
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