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Quote:
. "Damascus barrels were never proved WITH Nitro powder." Like peak psi with BP somehow is different than peak psi with Nitro?!?

The catch here is "Peak". I do recall reading that in the early days, in England at least, that nitro proof was done with black powder. the reason cited was that in those days they did not truly have a suitable smokeless to proof the gun for both black & smokeless at the same time. A coarse black could be loaded as to give the needed max/peak chamber pressure while simultaneously giving a suitable load to test the entire barrel. The fast burning smokeless powders of the day when loaded up gave an increase in chamber pressure but with a quick falling of that did not test the forward 3/4ths as heavy as did the black used. A still heavier load of smokeless could actually damage the chamber area but never truly "Proof" the forward portions.
The French of course did proof "With" smokeless but even with their tremendous pressures developed it is questionable if they actually gave any stronger overall proof than did the Brits & were likely skating on thin ice in the chamber area.


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That Wakeman guy is unbelievable. He could argue with a fence post. And he's been doing it for years.

I guess it keeps the prices down for all of us.

I wonder what he would think of my vintage rifles.

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First we have this test described by Jack O'Connor,

Jack O'Connor Outdoor Life 1942
A good many people resent being told that their much loved old guns were no longer safe. Just for the fun of it, Lou Smith (President of Ithaca Gun Co.) proofed (using 17,500 psi Proof Loads in 1942) a dozen or so damascus and twist beauties which were lying around the plant. Here's the dope: Most of the old timers busted loose with the first proof shell. The rest did with the second. Guns tried were cheap, medium priced and expensive: but all of them went. So if anyone wants to go ahead using modern smokeless stuff in a gun built for black powder, he can; but he can include me out.



Then we have the testing done by Sherman Bell in the Double Gun Journal which tested a Parker GH Damascus barrel that took 29,620 psi before the chamber blew.


So which one is correct? Or are both correct? Or are both wrong?



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Does anyone have a copy of the sherman bell article or articles in which he done those proof tests ?

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Originally Posted By: bonny
Does anyone have a copy of the sherman bell article or articles in which he done those proof tests ?


I don't have copies, but I have the original printings in the DGJ. I'm sure many of us do. Wouldn't be surprised if you could still order he back issues from them.

SRH


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Originally Posted By: Stan
Originally Posted By: bonny
Does anyone have a copy of the sherman bell article or articles in which he done those proof tests ?


I don't have copies, but I have the original printings in the DGJ. I'm sure many of us do. Wouldn't be surprised if you could still order he back issues from them.

SRH


Which issues were the articles in do you happen to know stan ?

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The number of damascus barrels which have passed British Proof over the last century simply Pales the blowing up of a single barrel set. How much more "Proof" does one need.
Some years back I bought a F grade Lefever Parts Gun with "London Twist" barrels. 14" up from the breech in the left barrel was a crack. Appearance was it had been hit on a sharp object which dented it in & perhaps cracked it at the same time. It had subsequently been fired which resulted in one side of the crack being lifted with the other side still into the bore with a gap showing that you could look through & see the opposite wall. Bore was very rough & pitted as well.

I put a dent plug under it & raised the inward side & beat down the outie until you had to look close to see the crack at all. Then proceeded to place it in the "Firestone Proof Chamber" & fired several rounds through that barrel. These included factory 3Ľ-1 1/8; 3 3/4-1Ľ & some handloads with 1 3/8oz of shot. I examined the barrel after each shot & at no time did I ever see any sign of any soot even on the outside much less any opening of the crack. What did this prove, well very little actually except that this particular barrel even though already damaged withstood those number of shots which were not "Low Pressure" loads, nor proof loads of course.
I think it does "Confirm", not prove, that the danger in Damascus has been highly magnified & does not lay at some distance from the breech as has been often stated. When Bell blew up those two Parkers, one Damascus & one steel, they both eventually blew in the Chamber area at near the same pressure level, around 30K psi as I recall.


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The Double Gun & Single Shot Journal “Finding Out For Myself” series by Sherman Bell with technical assistance from Tom Armbrust
Vol 10, Issue 2, Summer 1999, Part 1, p. 9
Vol 10, Issue 4, Winter 1999, p. 21 - Destructive testing of Parker GH Damascus
Vol 16, Issue 2, Summer 2005 - Destructive testing of Parker VH Vulcan Steel
Vol 17, Issue 3, Autumn 2006, p. 12 - Destructive testing 8 Damascus doubles
Vol 17, Issue 4, Winter 2006, p. 28 - Destructive testing 7 Damascus
Vol 18, Issue 1, Spring 2007 -
.....Destructive testing on a Damascus barrel with thinned walls; calculated by O.D. - I.D., not measured
.....Destructive testing using various obstructions, including a 20g shell
.....Destructive testing using a shell loaded with 3 1/4 Drams by volume or 56 grains of Unique
.....(similar to “Infallible”) with 1 1/4 oz. shot. The chamber burst with the first shot. The 3 1/4 Dram .....Equivalent load is 24 grains of “Infallible”.
Vol 19, Issue 2, Summer 2008, p. 18 - Destructive testing 1 Damascus, 6 Twist
Vol 20, Issue 3, Autumn 2009, p. 108 - Destructive testing 1 Damascus, 5 Twist
“Bottom-Of-The-Barrel Wall-Hangers”

The Remington Proof Loads used by Sherman Bell and Tom Armbrust were reported to be 18,560 psi.
Total 28 vintage doubles/54 Twist and Damascus barrels + 2 Vulcan (Fluid) Steel

Good discussion here
http://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=190599#Post190599

A Parker GH with Damascus barrels and the Parker VH with Vulcan Steel barrels were the subjects of destructive studies in the Double Gun Journal Vol. 10, Issue 4, Winter, 1999, “Finding Out For Myself” Part II and Vol. 16, Issue 2, Summer 2005, Part IX.
Both guns were subjected to sequentially higher pressure loads at about 2,000 pounds/square inch (psi) increments. The GH testing started at 11,900 psi and one chamber ruptured at 29,620 psi. The VH started with a Proof Load of 18,560 psi. Both chambers bulged at 29,620 psi and ruptured at 31,620 psi.

Here is the Failure Analysis of those Parker GH and Vulcan barrels posted on a public internet forum by 'Zircon' in 2007
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=234280&start=20



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Originally Posted By: 2-piper
The number of damascus barrels which have passed British Proof over the last century simply Pales the blowing up of a single barrel set. How much more "Proof" does one need.
Some years back I bought a F grade Lefever Parts Gun with "London Twist" barrels. 14" up from the breech in the left barrel was a crack. Appearance was it had been hit on a sharp object which dented it in & perhaps cracked it at the same time. It had subsequently been fired which resulted in one side of the crack being lifted with the other side still into the bore with a gap showing that you could look through & see the opposite wall. Bore was very rough & pitted as well.

I put a dent plug under it & raised the inward side & beat down the outie until you had to look close to see the crack at all. Then proceeded to place it in the "Firestone Proof Chamber" & fired several rounds through that barrel. These included factory 3Ľ-1 1/8; 3 3/4-1Ľ & some handloads with 1 3/8oz of shot. I examined the barrel after each shot & at no time did I ever see any sign of any soot even on the outside much less any opening of the crack. What did this prove, well very little actually except that this particular barrel even though already damaged withstood those number of shots which were not "Low Pressure" loads, nor proof loads of course.
I think it does "Confirm", not prove, that the danger in Damascus has been highly magnified & does not lay at some distance from the breech as has been often stated. When Bell blew up those two Parkers, one Damascus & one steel, they both eventually blew in the Chamber area at near the same pressure level, around 30K psi as I recall.


What that proves is as long as there are no extenuating circumstances even cracked barrels can hold together under load....that is where I worry about old Damascus barrels, will they add that extra level of safety when something goes wrong....are there hidden flaws between the layers that would cause the barrels to burst instead of bulge.....even in good looking examples that pass proof.... Im just not a fan of shooting them....they look nice but when you put it to your shoulder give me a few seconds to step away.....


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When you're stressing something that's a 100+ years old It's just a matter of when....

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