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1851-81 UK Census Records on number of employees - applied to several London Gun Makers including Reilly, Greener, Purdey, Lang:
Reilly was by far the largest company in 1881 - see conclusions


I’ve been going through the London 1851, 1861, 1871, 1881 (March 31) census researching two things:
. . . .Question 1). The census for those years asked questions of Masters about the number of employees (men, hands) they had.
. . . .Question 2). I have the name of Reilly’s foreman in 1861 John Baker, who took out a patent on a shotgun shell crimper for Reilly. I wanted to identify him from the 1861 census to see how he listed his occupation….to use as a tempplate to search for others involved in the gun trade.

Re Question 1:

The methodology of the UK census question might best be explained here:
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/01615440.2019.1707140
“The British business census of entrepreneurs and firm-size, 1851–1881: New data for economic and business historians”

These two books also are interesting general looks at the topic:
-- AN ECONOMIC HISTORY OF LONDON 1800-1914
https://books.google.com/books?id=WNKAAg...851&f=false
-- THE AGE OF ENTREPRENEURSHIP; BUSINESS PROPRIETERS, SELF-EMPLOYMENT AND CORPORATIONS SINCE 1851
https://books.google.com/books?id=Q5qfDw...851&f=false

In addition, according to the book London; A Social History, per the 1851 census out of 24,356 employers only 7 London firms employeed over 350 men and only 80 employed over 100. . So the data has to be available, and might even list the firms in order of their size. This data has been used in a number of studies on entrepreneurship in UK. It, however, was widely recognized as being incomplete.

In addition, someone somewhere also had detailed info on the trade at the time.

-- Per Wikipedia: “The number of firms in Birmingham's gun industry was 125 in 1815, 455 in 1829 (two-thirds of these in the Gun Quarter), and by 1868 there were 578 gun firms in the city. The trade employed 2,867 people in 1851, out of a total of 7,731 in the whole of England and Wales.. (The statistics had to come from the 1851 census....where can one find them?)

-- And per this article on the Birmingham gun trade, there are very detailed statistics available somewhere. Goodman - "On the Process of the Small Arms Manufacture"
https://books.google.com/books?id=SUwuAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA497&lpg=PA497&dq=the+list+of+workmen+employed+estimates+the+total+number+at+7,340&source=bl&ots=WDuTRfe2vO&sig=ACfU3U3jNVTfTnhHS9_e7DPwxVEneWKU-A&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwih9o_7r9npAhXjlXIEHTe_CAsQ6AEwAHoECAcQAQ#v=onepage&q=the%20list%20of%20workmen%20employed%20estimates%20the%20total%20number%20at%207%2C340&f=false


Results for question 1: I cannot find a gunmaker in London who listed the number of persons he employed in 1851 and 1861. However here are examples from 1871 and 1881:
-- 1871 Purdey employed 58 men
-- 1881 E.M. Reilly reported to the census that he employed 300 men;
-- 1881 WW Greener said he employed 140 men:

1) Reilly entries:
Edward Michael Reilly 1861 and 1881 Census entries:

Joseph Charles Reilly 1841 Census entry - note that Edward Michael was also identified as "Gun Maker."


2) Purdey entries: Here are the three entries for James Purdey (Elder – retired in 1858, and Younger) for the 1851, 1861, and 1871 census. There is not a word about the number of people they employed in 1851 and 61. In 1871, Purdey said he employed 58 persons - 1/5th the number of Reilly in 1881. (Purdey elder identified his occupation as "Gun Maker & Seller" in 1851).


3) Lang entries: 1851, 1861 entries for Joseph Lang, Gun Maker - nothing about employees.


4) John Blissett: 1851 entry for John Blissett (who listed his occupation as “Whitesmith”).


5). WW Greener, Gun Maker, 1881 census entry - employed 140 men:


CONCLUSION: From the above, Reilly employed 5 times as many men as Purdey in 1881 and more than twice as many as WW Greener. Per the above article on Birmingham gun quarter in 1868, however, these numbers must have fluctuated regularly as demand increased/decreased.

I'm still having problems searching these census databases. I know that TRW999 did research on Reilly and used the census records. Any tips on how to use the data would be appreciated and also where might the data on entrepreneurs in London on these census dates be found?

Last edited by Argo44; 06/10/20 10:38 AM.

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Question 2): As for "John Baker" I looked at 450 odd John Baker's in the 1861 London census. I limited myself to the ones who lived in Middlesex, since the average commute of a Londoner at the time was 1.2 miles per the above books. I was unable to identify a John Baker - gun maker. There were carpenters, silk-weavers, foremen, coach painters, bricklayers, hatters, laborers, bill posters, police, cabinet makers, shoemakers, porters, table makers, an undertaker, a "reader to soldiers", plasterer, ...etc.

There was one "John Baker", a widower who identified himself as "Benchman." That would be the only possibility for the John Baker who patented the shell crimper for Reilly:



There also is this "John Baker" who was an "engineer":


Edit: There is this fellow Frederick J. Baker, Gun Maker from the 1861 census....I haven't paid to get access to it and ancestry.com ism't turning up everything - not even close. I may join that UK census site.



Frederick J. Baker, might be this fellow from the 1871 electoral rolls. I need to get better with this census stuff:


Alexandra Road is across the Thames and a good 5 miles from 315 Oxford Street. - long commute in 1861.


Last edited by Argo44; 06/10/20 10:39 AM.

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Given Reilly`s claimed workforce figures,do you have an insight into what his main product line was at this time ?Was he largely making military ordnance ? Here in the UK I would not say there are a great number of sporting guns of that period made by Reilly compared to Purdey and the other topline London makers/retailers extant.

Last edited by Imperdix; 05/29/20 04:14 PM.
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Imperdix, The list of extant Reilly's is on p.44. Reilly serial numbered abut 33,000 guns from c1825/7 to 1912. There are about 375 listed on p.44 with another 50 or so for which the auction houses did not publish the serial number. About 1.4% of his serial numbered output. But at least one British writer wrote that Reilly also made guns for the trade - for other makers in London.

In 1880 Reilly made about 650 serial numbered guns per the p.44 chart. Purdey and Holland&Holland combined made about 490 (I've temporarily lost my reference). By 1882...Reilly was making over 1,000 serial numbered guns a year double the number of Purdey and H&H together.

I speculate that Purdey and H&H guns survived because of who bought them - well-to-do gentlemen and royalty. Reilly made inexpensive but quality guns and delivered them rapidly and his clientele were the mid-level military officer, etc. They probably just shot those guns to death they way they were supposed to.

Scroll through that list of extant guns which are now dated pretty well. It's a walk in UK gun history..from muzzle loaders, the beginning of center-break guns, Enfield rifle-muskets (the dominate surviving gun during the War Between the States), the first military breech loaders - Prince, Terry's Patent, Green, Snider, Complain, Martini-Henry actions, etc... the SxS break action guns, pin fires, advancing to center-fire, a lot of SxS big-bore rifles, on to pigeon guns, etc. And he made a ton of guns for the Yoemanry militia and gun clubs.

I'm now on the track of an alleged photo taken inside the Reilly workshop on Oxford Street from the mid-1870's. Have to wait for Library of Congress to reopen.

Last edited by Argo44; 05/29/20 11:06 PM.

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Finding answers is always difficult ,lots of information is out there,the difficulty is finding it ,as it`s often well out of easy view in my experience! Good luck with your search.

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Thanks for your encouragement, sir, and for that of a dozen other posters here. It's funny how a curiosity can turn into a question, which can become a query - "What the heck does that mean?!!," and transform into a quest. At its simplest, at least these guns have been dated. It's small-scale research but it is UK gun-history.

Last edited by Argo44; 06/01/20 09:32 PM.

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Kirby Hoyt just listed Reilly SN 13224 on Guns International. I sent him a link to this DB and analysis:


Kirby, my name is Gene Williams, McLean VA. I've written a new history of the Reilly firm published in two parts last Aug, Sep in Diggory Haddoke's on-line magazine Vintagegunjournal. The research into Reilly continues and update can be read here: ://doublegunshop/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=436538&page=44

I've compiled a chart dating Reilly's by Serial Number which can be read on the above line. 13224 would have been dated in early 1864. Reilly at the time had two workshops at 502 New Oxford St. and 315 Oxford St. Since the gun is sleeved, we don't know which shop made it. But the case is not original to the gun. 315 Oxford St. changed to 277 Oxford St. in November 1881.

I also believe the gun was originally a pin fire and has been converted to center-fire. The earliest Reilly made center break, original center-fire shotgun I've found is SN 14115 dated on my chart to 1866, about the time the first practical center-fire shotgun cartridges were patented. Anyway, beautiful gun..


Got this back from him.

Thank you so much for your help with this Reilly. I will pass the history along to the new owner as it was sold yesterday within an hour of its listing. I have probably had between 100 and 200 Reilly’s over the thirty some years I have been selling English doubles.

I believe we have some coming soon in our next shipment from the UK. Do you have a serial number chart you would share so we can date them? Buyers often want to know when their gun was made so it is wonderful when we can provide the approximate date in the listing.

Again, thank you for sharing your knowledge with us,

All the very best

Kirby


Kirby, I'm attaching the latest version of the "New History of Reilly" from the "Doublegunshop" Reilly line. At the bottom of the history, is the current serial number dating chart with footnotes. Hope this will help. You're welcome to share it with your customers.

I do plan to change the footnote again shortly....I got a little carried away with gun serial numbers and downplayed the March 23, 1847 move from 316 High Holborn to 502 New Oxford Street - which is the marker date.

The Reilly line is here - it caused some uproar because for 50 years the "establishment" has said that Reilly was a retailer only. I think I've conclusively proven that they were one of the largest gun making companies in London from 1827 to 1900 when they began to decline - Bankrupt in 1912:


Gene,

Thank you so much. This is fantastic!

We will make great use of this information and am pleased we can share it.

If we can ever do anything for you just let me know

All the very best

Kirby


Revolutionary idea: If you have a history of an obscure gun maker and can date the guns...marketing gets interesting. Perhaps some others could use the data here. It's free. Send me an email and I'll send you the document on the History and Serial Number chart....and the Case/Trade label dating information...and if needed the Extant SN database. smile

Or heck, just super-copy it. NP - - better yet, we'll make a trade - give me your database on serial numbered Reilly's you've sold over 40 years for the Reilly database and I'll give you the history for free. Hummm...wait....it's already free. smile


Last edited by Argo44; 06/03/20 09:31 AM.

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===================================================================================================
Re-checking the dating of Reilly case/trade labels.


On p.44 of this line is a cheat-sheet chart of Reilly labels, dated, which can help date a gun when nothing else is available. I was looking to confirm a statement I made in the history - to wit, that Reilly labels for 16 (502) New Oxford Street did not change from its adoption in August 1860 to 1898, and the separate label for 315 (277) Oxford Street did not change from it appearance about 1875 to 1898 when 16 New Oxford Street was closed.

Turns out I was wrong. There was a slight change....you'll see different advertisements along the bottom of both labels after the company left 2 rue Scribe in late July 1885.

Here is 16 (502) New Oxford Street label with rue Scribe still occupied (the label had not changed since it was adopted in August 1860 except for addition of the 1867 Paris Universelle medals)....and the label after they left rue Scribe in late July 1885:



And here is 315 Oxford Street with rue Scribe, and 277 Oxford Street after rue Scribe was closed:



I then went back and checked the premise that rue de Faubourg, St. Honore, the address found on 4 case/trade labels, was open after the November 1881 change in the Oxford Street numbering system but before rue Scribe was closed in late July 1885. (There are numerous writings for years that claim rue de Faubourg was opened after rue Scribe was closed from all sorts of expert authors).

Here is the label from SN 22432 serial numbered in 1880 per my chart. The case label is for 16 New Oxford St. and mentions 277 Oxford St. and rue de Faubourg, St. Honore....so post November 1881.

The advertisements at the bottom of the label are slightly different from those on the standard 502 label (of course you wouldn't advertise Enfield Rifles in France) - but very similar to the post July 1885 16 Oxford St. label - (compare "self-ejector" rather than "ejector"). It certainly looks like the post 1885 16 New Oxford Street label as far as the advertisements go.

But, the reason that this label may be dated pre 1885 is simple: who was the owner of 22432? - George Sackville Sinclair Wemyss (born 1855, died 1882). Perhaps the advertisements on this label were a harbinger of what was to come in 1885? Or is this the just usual auction house hype which often has nothing to do with history?



This topic needs some more research with really befuddling information:
1) there are no British press advertisements for a Reilly branch in Paris after July 1885.
2) There are three Reilly guns with only "Paris" on their ribs after the last Reilly with rue Scribe.
3) the man who bought the above Reilly with the label died in 1882.
4) but the label advertisements for rue du Faubourg look very similar to post 1885 Reilly labels.
So French records will be key. Will advise.

Edit....these rue du Faubourg labels have the 1884 London exposition medals on them. The label is on SN 26880, dated to early 1885. This may or may not be important. There are earlier serial numbers from as early as 1879 which have that label.

Last edited by Argo44; 08/04/20 08:56 PM.

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===================================================================================================
Reilly's were not Freemen of the Worshipful Company of Gunmakers.


At the suggestion of David Trevallion (Crossed Chisels) I contacted the Worshipful Company of Gunmakers in London, asking if either J.C. or E.M were ever actual members of the Company. A 1926 book stated this as fact. I doubted its accuracy. There were a lot of people involved in the gun trade who were not Freemen and there were members who were not involved in the gun trade. But it was a detail to tie up. Here is the response from Mr. Dereck Stimpson, the honorary archivist of the Company:

Dear Mr Williams,

Many thanks for your email and information. I will read your article with interest during the week.

I seemed to recall that neither Reilly entered the Gunmakers’ Company. I have now checked our records - the index and the Freedom (and Livery, just to be sure) pages for those dates (early 1820’s to 1870”s to be sure) and they are not there. The answer appears therefore confirmed - that they did did not become Freemen.

For your interest I own a pair of much used Reilly hammer ejectors nos. 30394 and 30395. They are described in Double Gun Journal Vol 19 Issue 3 Autumn 2008. There are a couple of typos in the article (one being - sides should read slides, describing the ejector mechanism) and the colour reproduction, usually good, is unfortunately rather dark. The address on the rib is Oxford St.

I also have a Reilly 28b hammer S/L serial no. 23898 - a lovely little gun with beautiful damascus barrels. All three fit me well!

Please let me know if I can assist in any other way.
with best wishes
Derek Stimpson


I've thanked Dereck for his help and will let David know. I've asked about those Reilly's he owns. I already had a 30394, a 12 bore sold by Christies in 1995 with no mention of a pair. I always suspect auction houses of not being (how to put it diplomatically) particularly fastidious about the accuracy of the information they put out about the guns they're selling - perhaps I'm paranoid and that was the dawn of the internet? If anyone has a copy of that DGJ article - Double Gun Journal Vol 19 Issue 3 Autumn 2008 - would much appreciate your forwarding the article....I just cannot stuff more books on another hobby into the house.

I will be changing the History shortly. At this point I would push the first Reilly made gun to 1827 when the first gun advertisements can be found in the London papers. For the moment I don't feel like changing the chronology though I ultimately will.

Thanks for forwarding it Stephen. From the article it's evident that Dereck's #1 is most likely the Christie's gun. I change the chronology description.

Last edited by Argo44; 06/07/20 11:36 PM.

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“ If anyone has a copy of that DGJ article - Double Gun Journal Vol 19 Issue 3 Autumn 2008 - would much appreciate your forwarding the article “

E-mail sent.

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