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==================================================================================================
25711 and Dave getting kicked and back blasted



Photos from the 2003 Vintager's. Dave shooting an 8 bore Reilly. Does anyone happen to know the details on this Reilly? SN, address on Rib, did it have a case? Label? etc. Thanks. (looks to me to be circa SN 16000 about 1871?)



I asked Dave about this and received this response:
"I will always remember shooting that monster! Kick wasn’t untennable but the air concussion was amazing. Unfortunately I have no details on the gun or owner,"

I may already have this 8 bore in the list above but still would welcome any info.

Edit: Mystery solved....not the identity of Scott but of the 8 bore. From the looks of the photo it's 25711, the gun former Maharajah gun posted a couple of times above: See https://jamesdjulia.com/item/1382-396/


Last edited by Argo44; 09/11/18 06:00 PM.

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===================================================================================================================================
1825 - 1885 - Reilly and the London Proof House



I've always been curious about when exactly J.C. Reilly became a "gun maker." He opened 12 Middle Row, High Holborn as a silver plate worker/"jeweler in 1814. In 1819 he allegedly entered a plate mark with the goldsmith's in London (unable to locate this mark - there is nothing to verify this unless he used "Charles" and left off Joseph)(apparently being allowed to enter a mark was a rite of passage - you just didn't walk into the silver trade and be allowed to put your initials all over the place). Then there is an 1829 advertisement which identifies him as both a gun maker and a silver plate worker.

However, this document seems to be pretty definitive evidence that by 1825 he was indeed a gun maker. I can't see the images of the plate itself. But here is the print record of the copperplate references to members of the Worshipful Company of Gunmakers, London. (the London proof house)..listing Reilly, Joseph Chas - 1825.

https://archive.org/stream/in.ernet.dli.2015.278485/2015.278485.A-History_djvu.txt
"THE PROOF PLATE OF THE WORSHIPFUL COMPANY
OF GUNMAKERS





"This copperplate is traditionally supposed to have been stamped with the accepted maker’s identification mark used by a maker when he was admitted as a freeman of the Company. The mark would serve to distinguish his barrels from those sent in to proof by other makers.
..
..
..

"The order of the stamps seems to be roughly chronological, although here and there Lter mprints occur out of order. The short but blurred top line dates back to about 1680, and the last line bears the stamps of gunsmiths of the last decade of the l8th century. In course of time and by the close scrutiny of marks on pieces in collections it may be possible to resolve the riddle set by the plate. I shall be interested to hear from any collector who can trace any of the marks which occur on the plate and are not among the makers’ marks given in this book. The photograph of the plate is reproduced by permission of the Worshipful Company of Gunmakers of London.
,,
,,
,, (Reilly references extracted)

1825-40 - Reilly, Joseph Chas. London
1832 - Reilly & Co. London
1850 - Reilly, Edward M. London
Reilly, 1882, London. Breakdown action revolvers of -450 calibre.

Edit: I cannot be sure this list is correct; the file in digital format is unclear.

EDIT: The below site purports to have the names of all members of the Worshipful Company of Gunmakers and Reilly's name does not come up. Now whether the site actually has what it purports to have is another question.

https://search.findmypast.com/search-wor...sions-1656-1936

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===================================================================================================================================
1859 - Reilly and the Breech vs Muzzle loader contest


This 1859 book which aspires to objectively analyze the pros ad cons of Muzzle Loaders and Breech Loaders. is interesting: P. 254-292 detailed analysis of Breech loaders at the time and Reilly plays a part (selections posted below). Worth reading...especially the introduction dealing with the uproar and fights between muzzle loading and breech loading fans.

https://books.google.com/books?id=6ftIAA...gun&f=false






And here is the chart of the shoot-off in 1859 - the scales seem tilted towards the muzzle loaders since rapidity and ease of loading is not part of the grading scale; However, the Key point was the breech loader held its own.


Last edited by Argo44; 09/11/18 01:09 PM.

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If I manipulate the website correctly, it does not come up with many names. Also, some names it lists come up only in years which are many years past the actual known years of when they worked. For instance it has Purdey starting in 1883 or so.

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===================================================================================================================================
1922 - Charles Riggs takes over Reilly


In August 1922 (widely reported on the internet as "1917" which cannot be) a fellow named Charles Riggs bought the Reilly name and marketed guns as "EM Reilly, London." I've identified about 8 guns extant sold as Reillys by Riggs. I bought the Riggs catalog and I'll pass along some observations which may do an injustice to him but these are impressions (and initial impressions only).

Riggs comes across as a small-time sports equipment retali salesman owning a small store; He for years sold BSA products and his store sold guns, motorcycles, bicycles, golf equipment, etc. BSA catalogs are around with his name on the front of them as a distributor/retail sales. Each "department" in the store was a small...almost closet-like.. space.

The photos in the catalog make him out to be something of a con-man. He was an active fellow and it appears something of a self-promotor. He was a sergeant in the Essex Yoemanry and organized reunion dinners from 1915 -1939 and in the process promoted himself to lieutenant. He also claimed to be a "crack shot" and to have shot championship matches at Bisley (but there is no record of him ever winning anything). He's pictured in a military uniform with sergeant stripes, every medal possible on him including a cross of some sort around his neck posing by a table full of trophies. And a picture of a cluttered small desk of the "Managing Director." His firm allegedly was in business for a long time yet the internet turns up almost nothing on him or his store except for a manual on cleaning guns and an offer by him to sell the UK home guard 100 Martini-Henry's with bayonets in 1915. I'll post several photos from the (very poor copy) of the catalog below as examples.

Here is the key point: There are Riggs-Reilly's on the market - I've identified several per the following post. In Europe they sell for a couple of hundred pounds if that. One, however, is currently being offered on a major gun sales site as an "EM Reilly" for a very expensive price. I will just warn our readers to be aware that a Riggs...is NOT an EM Reilly; they were not made by Reilly and a Riggs-Reilly can be identified by a six digit serial number. Haven't a clue who built the guns for Riggs but it might have been BSA given his connections to the firm:

Post 1917? (edit: August 1922) 130000? - 150000+ ("1" added to front of SN's) - Reilly name bought by Charles Riggs who continued to make “E.M. Reilly" guns. It looks like he added a "1" in front of the Reilly series when he took it over, - perhaps starting about (1)37,000? indicating he may have sold up to 15,000 numbered guns. Only a few can be found so far..
134183 - E.M. Reilly & Co., 16ga. SxS shotgun. BLNE
136535 - E.M. Reilly..not mentioned. 12 ga. Shotgun SxS. BLE.
138279 - E.M. Reilly (address not mentioned). 20bore Shotgun SxS. BLE
140415 - E.M. Reilly of London. 16bore shotgun SxS. 30" steel barrels
140451 - E.M. Reilly, London. 16bore Shotgun SxS. (Charles Riggs, post 1917)
144939 - E.M. Reilly, London, 12 bore Shotgun SxS BLNE. 28 barrels.
146242 - E.M. Reilly & Co., London; 12bore. Top lever hammer gun. Pistol grip stock.
150570 - E.M. Reilly & Co., London. 12ga. Shotgun SxS. Boxlock non-ejector.

Note his comment in the introduction: "All our guns in the future will be named "E.M. Reilly & Co., London" thus adding another 25(pounds) to the value should you ever desire to sell it." (also adding to the price he charged for the guns).
















......................Charles Riggs......................................................................Prince Charles


Last edited by Argo44; 10/13/18 12:35 PM.

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There is at least one Reilly catalog available in UK per below. If any of the British readers are in the area of London University, it would be interesting to see that catalog. No idea from the website what age it is. Thanks.
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/a0efbe7d-a34b-4135-988f-edbec1ffabee

You are in
103 - London University: University College London (UCL) Special Collections
GB
.....0103 BROUGHAM WB - Brougham Papers: William Brougham, 2nd Baron Brougham and Vaux, correspondence and papers
..........This record (browse from here by hierarchy)

Catalogue description
E.M.REILLY & CO

Reference: BROUGHAM WB/E.M.REILLY & CO
Title: E.M.REILLY & CO
Date: undated
Held by: London University: University College London (UCL) Special Collections, not available at The National Archives
Language: English


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==================================================================================================
19286. (early Jan 1875)



VALIDATION OF DATING METHOD: - for the historians.

A dating method for Reilly guns based on serial numbers and known "marker dates" is posted on page 9 above. A dozen more guns have been added to it (in a draft)...no surprises thus the metnodology seems pretty solid. There were doubts, however about the long period between Feb 1868 when he opened rue Scribe and Nov 1881 when the address numbers on Oxford street changed. I've just found 19286 on a British gun board, subject of a 2009 chat. Our above system would date 19286 to very late 1874 or very early 1875.(below excerpt extracted from edited page 9 posting)

1874: 18651 - 19285
18763 - E.M. Reilly (address not mentioned). 10 bore. Shotgun SxS. rebounding bar locks, underlever.
18766 - E.M. Reilly & Co., New Oxford Street, London & Rue Scribe, Paris. 500BPE. Rifle SxS; Underlever, rebounding hammer gun. (Krakow Kid's gun)
18782 - E.M. Reilly & Co., (no barrels). 12 boe, under lever, hammer gun. Action/stock only
18860 - E.M. Reilly & Co., Oxford Street London & Rue Scribe. Paris. 4bore Shotgun SxS. underlever, non-rebounding hammergun.
18954 - E.M. Reilly & Co., New Oxford Street, London & Rue Scribe, Paris. 500BPE. Rifle SxS. Underlever, rebounding hammer gun. (Krakow Kid's gun)
19190 - E.M. Reilly & Co., New Oxford Street, London and Rue Scribe, Paris. 12 bore. Shotgun? SxS. BP proof, under lever, hammer gun; 1873 Anson Deeley fore end patent 3756. 1868 Purdey chopper lump patent; 24.5” barrels.

1875: 19286 - 19920
19286 - E.M. Reilly & Co., (address not mentioned). 10 bore. Shotgun SxS. Rebounding hammers
19827 - E.M. Reilly & Co., 502 New Oxford Street, London. 12ga. Shotgun SxS. Side lever hammer gun. (Buffum).
..
..
..
The chat analysis...posted below...while confused like everybody who writes about Reilly by someone's claim (possible Brown?) that Reilly closed rue Scribe in 1872 and reopened it in 1884...results in a spot on conclusion - late 1874 or early 1875. I'll post the conversation here and photos because this is in a way some validation of the dating method and indicates the model is pretty darn accurate.

https://www.internetgunclub.com/archived-forum/posts.php?topicid=1344

I am a new member to this excellent forum and would value some assistance on the aforementioned gun. A little bit of current information;

- 10 bore hammergun, rebounding hammers, breech face in good condition with no pitting; some relatively basic scroll engraving. Table reads "H Walker's 1098 Patent"
- 30 inch Damascus barrels, excellent condition with v minor exterior pitting in some areas. Game/concave rib, wedge and escutcheon fore-end; recently nitro-proofed
- Semi pistol grip stock with original heel plate; some minor marking and one small (1cm) chip out of stock close to action.

Confusingly, the gun has a slight difference in serial numbers; the table reads 19286, the barrels and foreend 19206, the trigger guard 1928 – could the table be a mistaken number? Any help on assessing what the proof marks mean would be most helpful!

Guidance on history, originality and possible value would be greatly appreciated. I would like to use the gun ongoing for ‘fowling so am genuinely keen to find out more. A brief review of the history of Reilly could indicate manufacture between 1869-1872 (due to Paris address), but happy to be proven wrong here.

++++++++++++++response from “Tiger” (hope Lagopus or some of the other UK members known him - the response is excellent)++++++++++++++++++

As far as we know, the Reillys, like most gunmakers, bought the various components and assembled them, or bought almost complete guns "in-the-white", stocked and finished them, and put their name on them. Although this gun has London proof marks, all of it is likely to have been made in Birmingham. Nothing wrong with that, good servicable weapons of better quality than anywhere else in the world for the price. The "Best" quality in a London gun came mainly from the final finishing which added a little to reliability and "feel" but most to beauty / elegance and pride of ownership.

Your gun was a nominal 10 bore but actually measured 11 bore. Lovely damascus barrels bearing the crown over V London View Mark (1637-1954) for preliminary inspection, the crown over bar over GP Provisional Proof Mark (1813-date) to reveal faults before any expensive work was done on the barrels, and the crown over GP London Definitive Proof Mark (1637 to date), all these adding up to Black Powder Proof. The barrel flats have two of these original marks as expected.

The action flats have the expected View mark, and they have the H Walker patent mark for his barrel bolting and safety for drop-down actions patent No 455 of 12 February 1872 ( Use No. 1098 ) .

Of equal importance to the marks are the ones that don't appear e.g. no NOT FOR BALL or CHOKE mark (so see what patterns it throws with various cartridges). The first of these was introduced in 1875, so this and the patent date mean the gun was made definitely not before Feb 72, or after 1875.

It must have been made a couple of years after 1872, say 1874 to early 1875, and we favour the latter because even if the gun was made by a large trade maker, the 1098 use number is quite a large number. You will have noted that neither we nor anyone else really know when the Paris shop closed, we only think it was shortly after 1872.

The gun was re-proved after 2005, we can't read the crossed swords date code and confess to not having the key to these recent codes! The two crowns over SUP are for the Superior Proof Mark for 1200 Bars, 10x76 is 10 bore 76mm chambers; 19.4 is the barrel diameter and crown over BNP is the Birmingham Nitro Proof Mark. Crown over R is the re-proof mark - why it is deemed necessary we don't know!

We think you can take it that the serial number is 19286 and that the engraver was an old man with poor eyesight and and a bad memory. Unlike the other gun we mentioned, we don't think this gun is made up of muddled parts!







Last edited by Argo44; 10/12/18 07:53 PM.

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Hi,

I have responded to your PM.

SXS 40


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I am sure this must have been posted before but Cornell Publication have a 24 page Riggs/Reilly catalogue that they sell, from 1924.

https://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns/item_desc.php?item_id=3510

Regards

AlanD
Sydney

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Thanks Alan...that's where the Riggs catalog excepts above came from - and I'm not sure it's 1924 - I think it's several years earlier. I would really hope that someday, some of the UK guys, could wander over to London University and take a look at that Reilly catalog in the archives.

And by the way I may have the name of the agent in Australia who imported Reilly's. I'll look it up. Do any of the agent's catalogs exist in the museums there?

Hammers Back – Issue No. 14 March 2004
"More luck came my way when I was given the advertisement on page 86/87 in 1866 edition of Walch’s Almanac. Now Walch is a Hobart (Tasmania) firm who have a long history associated with the printing and stationery trade. At that time they were the appointed Tasmanian Agents for E.M. Reilly & Co, 502 New Oxford Street, London, and begged to announce that the Reilly was built “on systems not liable to derangement”. The advertisement shows pair of under-lever pin- fire guns built on the Jones under-lever system in bore sizes 12, 15 17, and 24. Prices ranged from 12 to 35 guineas. "

Last edited by Argo44; 05/15/18 02:53 PM.

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