doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com E.M. Reilly; History; Chronology; Serial Numbers

There goes them Reilly worms again....

Looks like prima-facie evidence based on 3 guns shows Reilly was indeed one of only (now) three London gun makers stamping bore sizes on their guns prior to the 1855 UK ordinance requiring it (the other two being Greener and Manton). This is history!!:

Terry has gotten the barrel off his "6 bore" posted above. It is indeed SN 4573 - an "outlier" which I've dated to 1844 for a variety of reasons (I'm starting to think JC may have had still another number series - 4573, 5512, have at least the semblance of some order - but need a lot more evidence). There is a "7" on that massive barrel which is either bore size or preliminary bore size:


5512 firmly dated to 1847 has "16":


and Harry's 7869 firmly dated to 1855 (the year the provision became active).


2008 - J.C. Reilly labeled gun which I preliminarily dated 1856 per above - but could well be 1851 to 1855 in light of the new understanding that Reilly was stamping bore sizes on his guns from at least the early 1840's.


There are about 20 pre-1855 extant Reilly's. They are pictured above. Would appreciate the owners checking their proof marks. Thanks.

Argo44

I really respect the amount of original research you have undertaken on the firm of E M Reilly, especially in running to ground lots of newspaper notices with advertisements and address and so on.
Coming back to the subject of whether E M Reilly made his own guns.
One source which may provide some definitive evidence are the proof day books for The Worshipful Company of Gunmakers, London proof house. These are held in the library of the Guild Hall in central London. I have gone through some of these myself mainly for the periods of 1914-1918 and 1940-1945, also in connection with research I am doing on guns made by Vickers and Vickers Armstrong. I don't have the full date range of the ledgers to hand, but if you pick a period of time that you feel certain Reilly made guns not using Belgium tubes and the day books are available, then the name of Reilly will appear in those ledgers.
If not some other maker made his guns. With Reilly being based in London in would be natural for him to use the London proof house, rather than Birmingham.

Regards

AlanD
Sydney

Can you just walk into the Hall of the Worshipful Company of Gunmakers or do you have to make an appointment? I will be in that vicinity in a week or so.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

The the Worshipful Gunmaker proof records records are held at the Guildhall Library.
No appointment necessary but I would check their website for opening hours.

https://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/things-to-do/guildhall-library/collections/Pages/default.aspx

Regards

AlanD
Sydney

Many thanks Alan:

https://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/things-t...ct-details.aspx

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

On p. 13 above I commented on the London Proof House. One book seemed to suggest Reilly joined in 1825 but that is unclear. Here is the print record of the copperplate references to members of the Worshipful Company of Gunmakers, London. (the London proof house)..listing Reilly, Joseph Chas - 1825.

https://archive.org/stream/in.ernet.dli.2015.278485/2015.278485.A-History_djvu.txt
"THE PROOF PLATE OF THE WORSHIPFUL COMPANY





Call attention to the second to last paragraph...where barrel maker X made barrels for Y and Z...and it's listed XY...or XZ, etc.

The problem is the plate is unclear and some of the makers marks going back to 1680 are not identified. Various makers joined the proof house at varying times; some prominent gun makers are never listed as members.

I wrote to the Worshipful Company of Gunmakers asking questions about Reilly - no answers. I believe David Trevallion is a member. I will repeat however, that per the research above, all Reilly guns with original barrels, which are serial numbered, were proofed in London. If it has a Birmingham proof, it is highly unlikely to have a Reilly SN...that is until Charles Riggs bought the name in 1922.

I'd love to do some research there looking at the day books since I can pinpoint certain Reillys to within a couple of weeks of manufacture...and in particular on Reilly SN guns in my database. Perhaps the next time I go overseas, I can arrange to stop in London for a day or two. Reilly also allegedly had a silver mark he took out in 1819 - I've been unable to find it.

And Raimey...I stumbled on a site for Purdey which listed the order of tasks in manufacturing Purdey guns which changed during the decades(When I was researching at what point in a gun's manufacture were the barrels blued/browned). This site mentioned about 1876 that "now we have Belgian barrels...". I cannot find the darned thing again. I'll keep looking. But that was a pretty damning statement coming from a Purdey historian.

To quote Hillary Clinton at this point what difference does it make ?

I've added several newly found Reilly's to the running list on p.33 above. This PINFIRE SN 11469 is now the earliest extant Reilly center-break gun found so far. I've dated it to about April 1860 - Jones underlever. Note....it did not sell in the September 2019 Holt's auction:

=========================================================
11469
https://auctions.holtsauctioneers.com/as...3&saletype=
A 12-BORE PINFIRE DOUBLE-BARRELLED SPORTING-GUN SIGNED 'E.M. REILLY', serial no. 11469, circa 1870 (?), with signed 29 3/4in. barrels, engraved signed bar-action locks, walnut butt-stock and 'bar-in-wood splinter fore-end, finish worn
Estimate �500-700



It looks very similar to the gun pictured in the 1860 book Rifles and the Volunteer Rifle Corps.. Also, the several pages on Reilly's entry in the 1859 trials is historically interesting; The militia and home guard had to supply their own weapons and were far more experimental and forward looking than Ordinance. (Note the name "Reilly & Co." which was used in early-mid 1859; In October 1859 "E.M Reilly & Co." first appeared in advertisements; The gun in the book appears to use a Jones under-lever which was patented in September 1859).
https://books.google.com/books?id=gVIBAA...lly&f=false

Many thanks Argo.

https://books.google.com/books?id=m3AHAQ...ker&f=false
1864 price comparison......

William Fullard of Clerkenwell is noted as being one of the last tube rollers in London?

https://books.google.com/books?id=LAsAAA...ker&f=false

But I contend that Birmingham mechanics were having components and or guns in the white sent straightaway from Li�ge to the Birmingham proof facility, an exception in the proof law. Of course there were pattern welded tubes in the rough sent to Birmingham which were finished & sold to London mechanics.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse