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#577518 - 08/11/20 08:49 AM Re: E.M. Reilly; History; Chronology; Serial Numbers [Re: Argo44]
Daryl Hallquist Offline
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Registered: 12/31/01
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Loc: Bozeman, Mt.
Cool stuff. I enjoy seeing the trade labels pictured and analyzed.
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#578365 - 08/21/20 09:52 PM Re: E.M. Reilly; History; Chronology; Serial Numbers [Re: Argo44]
Argo44 Offline
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=============================================================
1863 - Reilly and a "Royal Warrant"


Stephen Nash in his excellent line on pin-fires:
https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=574708&page=20
Made this comment:

"Royals set the trends and fashions in Victorian society, and gunmakers vied for royal appointments. Having a non-London maker obtain a royal patronage is unusual enough, and one doing so would make full use of this in their advertising – even after their patron’s death. Today we can look at such an instance, from a provincial gunmaker who was the favourite of Albert, Queen Victoria’s husband."

In the "New History of Reilly," the following statement is made:

"Throughout the 1860's Reilly guns were purchased by various members of the British royal family, usually to give as gifts to foreign dignitaries or persons who had done favors for the family. Reilly tried to obtain, but without success, a Royal Warrant as 'Gun Maker to the Royal Family'."

Because by chance there is a similar observation in the IGC history of Reilly, following are the reasons for the above deduction (totally independent of IGC "copyrights') - (previously posted about p. 18 but reiterated) - and unlike IGC, every statement in this "New History" has been footnoted - with interpretations which can be disputed in open debate.

In 1863, Reilly appeared to obsequiously solicit the favor of the Royal family by putting out huge gas stars on his store-front upon the marriage of the Prince of Wales in March 1863, and another similar event in November 1863.

11 Mar 1863,"London Daily News" (The whole London press was filled up with pages of reports on the illumination of the city in celebration) - Reilly advertised as "gun-makers to his Royal Highness the Prince of Wales":

16 Mar 1863, London Daily News:


And again in November for some Royal birthday or something...this from the 10 November 1863 edition of the "London Evening News" advertising himself as "Gun Maker to the Royal Family":


Well, obviously this didn't sit well with the Royals..and in the 1860's the UK public was even more dedicated to the Royal family than it is now.

This article appeared in the 24 March 1863 edition of the "Morning Advertiser." Prince Albert, the consort of Queen Victoria died in 1861. "Prince Albert" thus refers to the Prince of Wales, who was sent abroad on a "tour" in 1862, including South Africa, because of his libido. In which case Reilly was claiming to be a gunmaker for the Royal Family based on their buy of Reilly guns to give as gifts.

Edit: This article refers to Prince Alfred, not Prince Albert. Prince Alfred was Queen Victoria's second son. He later became Duke of Edinburgh, Admiral of the Fleet, and ended his life as Duke of Saxe-Coburg. He also gave Reilly guns as presents when he visited India in 1870. Thus, have no idea why Reilly claimed to have been "gun-maker" for the Prince of Wales.

Prince Albert Edward in 1862, later Edward VII in May 1862 after his tour (a notorious bounder at the time - Queen Victoria blamed him for her husband's death - Flashman got him laid (though why he would need help is beyond me) according to the Flashman papers of George McDonald Faser):



Prince Albert Queen Consort in 1859. But he did well. 5 daughters - later queens of Russia, Romania, Prussia, etc.


Prince Alfred in 1862:


This history of Reilly really has hinged on a few (or a lot) of newspapers articles and a good bit of interpretation. Never again after 1863 did Reilly try to say he was a gun-maker for the Royal family. Apparently this Irish Catholic upstart was slapped down and quickly. (And, one must admit that Reilly was not above using nefarious business tactics and trying to take a mile from an inch. For instance, it may be that Reilly's 1869 patent application for exploding rifle rounds was just a rip-off of Col. Jacob's 1856 invention).

Addendum: Prince Alfred gave gold washed Reilly as gifts in India during his visit in 1870 - much commented on in the April 1870 press...this from 16 April 1870 "Homeward Bound"







Edited by Argo44 (08/22/20 10:28 PM)
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#578700 - 08/25/20 07:59 PM Re: E.M. Reilly; History; Chronology; Serial Numbers [Re: Argo44]
Argo44 Offline
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Registered: 02/21/16
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=============================================================================
28861


Here's a mystery. 28861 is a 12 gauge, top lever, hammer shotgun, from 277 Oxford St., London, which I've had in the extant Reilly list for sometime. Choked cyl and 3/4. It dates per the chart above to early 1887 (should of had "not for ball" and other London stamps).
http://josephsvintageguns.com/gun-details.asp?gun=323

Going back to look at it again, there are a couple of odd things about it.
-- It has a semi-pistol grip stock. No Reilly shotgun before the Riggs era (1922) that I know had any sort of pistol grip. If this is correct, the gun had to have been a rifle before becoming a shotgun.
-- Yet it weighs 6lbs 8 oz...Reilly rifles in a substantial caliber weighed more. This is a shotgun weight.
-- It has its apparently original Damascus barrels, with serial number and address on the rib.
-- However, it has a string of modern post 2005 UK reproof marks - a Birmingham BNP, chambers marked in mm, etc. Apparently all the original proof marks have been ground off save for the SN.
-- But there is one proof mark which is odd - the Crown over an "R" - a Belgian proof mark for rifles.


Might this be an indication that the original barrels came from Belgium and were rifled? The barrels look original. The gun is not heavy. So why is that proof mark there?





Edited by Argo44 (08/25/20 08:02 PM)
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#578711 - 08/25/20 08:44 PM Re: E.M. Reilly; History; Chronology; Serial Numbers [Re: Argo44]
ellenbr Offline
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Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 8849
Loc: North Alabama
Argo44:

Crown over R or R surmounted by a Crown is also a proofmark from the Little British Isles.

R(Script) - London
R(Block) - Birmingham


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

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#578712 - 08/25/20 08:46 PM Re: E.M. Reilly; History; Chronology; Serial Numbers [Re: Argo44]
SKB Offline
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Registered: 12/31/01
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Loc: Colorado
Crown over R is the re-proof mark.
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#578714 - 08/25/20 08:54 PM Re: E.M. Reilly; History; Chronology; Serial Numbers [Re: Argo44]
ellenbr Offline
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Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 8849
Loc: North Alabama
Originally Posted By: Argo44

-- But there is one proof mark which is odd - the Crown over an "R" - a Belgian proof mark for rifles.




This R is the Birmingham Reproof mark.

Joseph is a bud of Dig's

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

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#578718 - 08/25/20 09:29 PM Re: E.M. Reilly; History; Chronology; Serial Numbers [Re: Argo44]
Argo44 Offline
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Registered: 02/21/16
Posts: 1637
Loc: McLean, Virginia
Ah....I was twisting myself around an axle...ready to fly out to Liège to delve into records. Thanks.

(dang it...I was going to have to eat Moules and Frites and drink Belgian beer and stuff). (And I'll have to modify the history again...never say "it never happened" in the gun world).


Edited by Argo44 (08/26/20 12:14 AM)
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#578720 - 08/25/20 09:39 PM Re: E.M. Reilly; History; Chronology; Serial Numbers [Re: Argo44]
ellenbr Offline
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Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 8849
Loc: North Alabama
Save me a seat. Last time the German Planes, Trains & Automobiles failed me. Germans pride their-self on punctual time, but their rail infrastructure is a bit to be desired.

Lufthansa is always tardy & don't purchase a train ticket unless you see the train. Great advice given to me by the Baunhof empolyees.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

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#578721 - 08/25/20 09:46 PM Re: E.M. Reilly; History; Chronology; Serial Numbers [Re: Argo44]
ellenbr Offline
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Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 8849
Loc: North Alabama
Where do you wish to ride out the quarantine; at the Liège proof facility or @ the Ferlach proof facility?



Cheers,

Raimey
rse

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#578722 - 08/25/20 09:51 PM Re: E.M. Reilly; History; Chronology; Serial Numbers [Re: Argo44]
ellenbr Offline
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Registered: 08/10/07
Posts: 8849
Loc: North Alabama
Graz is an excellent position with foremost accommodations where we could make an appointment with Mr. Neuberger to visit in Wien.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

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