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Argo44 Offline OP
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===========================================================================================
4 bore guns marketed by Reilly - up for sale this week


This muzzle loader is for sale this September at Holt's (who will no longer answer my queries). It's a 1" gun (100 caliber = 4 gauge). No serial number. Reilly marketed it, he did not make it. Holt's claims it is circa 1855. It's not. It has the rue Scribe address so post Feb 1868. Date it around 1869 to be conservative.
https://auctions.holtsauctioneers.com/asp/fullCatalogue.asp?salelot=A2020++++522+&refno=++145300




(Why not buy a canon instead?)

And this 4 bore muzzle loader has been discussed here before, left-hand restock with set trigger last sold at James Julia - now up for auction at Rock Island next week. No serial number - with E.M. Reilly & Co. - post October 1859, not built by Reilly, only engraved and marketed. (Reilly was advertising two groove belted ball rifles as early as 1848).
https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail...ercussion-rifle


And a 3rd "Reilly" 4bore on Guntrader.uk. No SN so Reilly didn't make it. Looks like London proof marks and some reproof marks as well.
https://www.guntrader.uk/guns/shotguns/reilly-em/hammer/04-gauge/single-hammer-200910143431002






Last edited by Argo44; 09/16/20 07:14 PM.

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Originally Posted By: Argo44

This muzzle loader is for sale this September at Holt's (who will no longer answer my queries).

I imagine Holt's has grown tired of your insane endlessness...to put it nicely.

You probably should just write a book with all your accumulated internet information...before you completely loose your mind over this.

Just an observation...

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Gene,
Things are still no where near normal in the UK. I have been having a hard time getting information from my contact at Holt's, as well as having issues with other auction houses. Hopefully things get straightened out over time.
Steve


http://www.bertramandco.com/
Booking African hunts, firearms import services

Here for the meltdowns
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Argo44 Offline OP
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Thanks Steve. By the way I did hear back from Imperial War Museum. Their inventory expert is looking over the Reilly dating chart and will get back to me on the three Reilly's in their collection. They're are unsurprisingly a little jammed up with a back-log of requests and bequeaths.

And Frank, I am writing the pamphlet. It's slow going - I can write reports, short stories, I can tell stories. But to organize a book with all the investigative stuff I've done for fun here over the past 4 years is daunting. Fortunately there are a couple of well-known writers on this board who have offered to help. And Frank, nice to know you're out. Were you paroled, did you make bail or did you escape?


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===================================================================================
SN 10054, 15 bore rifle; Fall 1856. Now earliest Reilly pin-fire.


Diggory Hadoke just sent this pin-fire advertisement to me - for sale tomorrow!!
https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/...lot-5db8919b-07d2-4cd7-9c66-ac1700a8e2ff
It is a 15 bore rifle, serial number 10054, 30 inch Damascus barrels with 502 New Oxford Street London address, fixed sight and folding 100, 200 and 300 yard sights, figured chequered stock with plain silver escutcheon, case hardened back action locks and receiver decorated with scrollwork, fitted into mahogany case with maker's label, containing oil bottle, screwdriver, pouch with cleaning jags, and an empty cartridge pouch, as well as several incorrect size Joyce No.16 empty cartridges.

It is pin-fire, forward single bite under-lever in the Lang-Lefaucheux style.
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

It has "Reilly, 502 New Oxford Street, London" on the rib. This is period correct for 1856 - the name didn't change to Reilly & Co., until August 1858.
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

The label is the post 1855 label with the 1851 and 1855 World's exposition medals on it along with "Fusils � bascule."
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

You'll note Sanskrit writing - obviously the gun was bought by an Indian maharajah - Really was selling a lot to India at the time and advertising as such (I'll try to get it translated):
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

The SN dates it on my chart to Fall 1856, just about the time when the first Reilly advertisement advertising "Fusils � bascule" (so far found) appeared in the London Press.
04 Oct 1856, "Illustrated London News"
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Amazing find!!History!! I don't think there are many earlier extant UK pin-fire center-break guns.

Last edited by Argo44; 02/01/22 11:02 PM.

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This is the new paragraph on 1856-59 Reilly pin-fire center-break guns in the History. It'll be edited in the future - but, as it stands it is evidence, very hard to refute, of Reilly building his own guns at the time:

Observation re "retailer" vs "gunmaker" from an analysis of 10054 and 10655:

-- In Fall 1856, there were virtually no outworkers in London who could have made 10054. Lang was making pin-fire Lefaucheux style breech loaders but not for the trade. Blanch claimed he made his first pin-fire breech-loader in 1856, this after traveling to Paris to buy a center-break, under-lever around trigger-guard, Berringer style pin-fire in late 1855 after the Paris Universelle and reverse engineering it. Reilly, thus was on his own when he obviously embarked on a similar path to that of Blanch in 1855 or possibly earlier to manufacture and sell the French invention.

-- Blanch explained in his later book, that at the time the change-over from muzzle-loaders entailed a massive alteration in the manufacturing processes for guns from a breech-plug to a lump, from locks to actions, etc. - this in the face of a very conservative clientele.

-- As for 10655, a Lefaucheux-style 12 bore SxS Shotgun pin-fire breech-loader, at the time it was numbered, early 1858, believe there were still very few gun-making firms or gun makers in general in all of UK that could have made it (and it's twins - submitted by Reilly for the March 1858 "The Field" breech-loader vs muzzle-loader trials) or portions of it - barrels, actions, etc.
. . . . - The two firms, who could possibly have made it, were Lang and Blanch (E.C. Hodges, the original designer of Lang's break-action gun, was making center-break actions, labeled with his name on the plate - not found on Reilly's). The first Birmingham-made center-break gun was still several years in the future.
. . . .- However, Lang and Blanch had orders aplenty themselves - they likely had no time to manufacture for "the trade." (Blanchs first pin-fire is dated 1856; Haris Holland made his first breech loader in 1857 although he advertised them in Sep 1856; Boss in 1858; Purdey in late 1858 or early 1859, etc.)

-- Thus, the most logical conclusion is that both 10054 and 10655 were indeed made by Reilly as he has claimed - no one else could have done it for him.

-- (These two conclusions are per historical data currently available on the early origins of UK center-break pin-fires.)

Last edited by Argo44; 09/18/20 08:51 PM.

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AaronN has posted three Reilly ads and accruements on the Pin Fire line that may push the date of the first Reilly center-break pin-fire back to 1855, probably shortly after the awarding of medals at the 1855 Paris Exposition Universelle. Based on this I will alter the history back to my original speculation, that Reilly changed his labels shortly after the Paris Fair and at around that time offered Center-Break guns for sale. This may change yet again as more information comes to light. Thanks Aaron.

-- interesting that the earliest advertisements use "Fusils Bascule" leaving out the "�".

16 Aug 1856, "Law Times." - advertisement for "Fusils Bascule."
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

1856 Dod's Peerage, Baronetage and Knightage of Great Britain and Ireland; "Fusil � Bascule." The volume was printed in 1856 (month not indicated); the forward written by Dod was dated 1856 (month not indicated) (unknown if it were the beginning or end of the year).
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

1855 headstamp on a Reilly, London pin-fire cartridge - made in UK or imported?
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Last edited by Argo44; 02/02/22 10:31 PM.

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====================================================================================
27570 - 16 bore, top leaver allegedly with "Paris" on the rib.


One of Terry Buffum's guns, an attractive 16 bore top-lever with 30" Damascus barrels, weighing 5 lbs 5 oz, was sold in 2016 by Amoskeag. It allegedly had "E.M. Reilly & Co., 277 Oxford Street, London & Paris" on the rib per Amoskeag. The SN would date it to late 1885. However, per above Reilly' Paris shop at 2 rue Scribe closed around 01 August 1885. I asked Terry about this - he couldn't remember.



This gun along with the (un-matched pair 16ga & 12 ga) two Scott triplex actions 27853 #1 and 27854 #2 which also have simply "Paris" on their ribs, were anomolies in the SN dating chart. The last Reilly with rue Scribe on the rib is 27340 and is used as a marker for July 1885.

27570 is now in Cyril Adam's list of guns to be disposed of. It's been worked on a bit since its sale 4 years ago. I asked Sam Shiller to take a look at the rib. Here is the picture - it has no 'PARIS' on the rib or gun. Scratch that as an anomaly.


Last edited by Argo44; 09/11/20 08:21 PM.

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Consider it scratched.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

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Who actually ran Reilly's Paris' retail outlet; a nephew or the like?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

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