doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Value of 1934 Skeet Model 21

Post removed after RWTF corrected misquote of my previous post.

Jay, in the sixth post of this nine page thread, David Noreen posted that there is no evidence of a Skeet Grade Model 21 in Winchester literature. I have presented evidence of the truth of Mr. Noreen's statement for nine pages of argumentative posts. I don't care any more. You want it to be your way, right or wrong. So be it. You are wrong, Mr. Noreen and Mr. Murphy are right. Mr. Noreen knows he is right, I know I am right. Noreen and Murphy have a full catalog collection as well as other research material. Why would you and Mr. Cash want incorrect information to be inserted into the bank of collector information. I can't imagine what your intent is.

Done and Dunn- but w/o the Bradstreet! OK?? RWTF

WTF??
I will not speak for Jay but in which post did I say I wanted incorrect information to be inserted into the bank of collector information?

Get over yourself!

Bill, you still seem not to understand what I'm saying. I don't claim that Winchester offered a gun they called Skeet Grade -- I have repeatedly acknowledged this and have no doubt you're right about that. I don't understand why you treat this as a matter of argument and conflict.

I'm simply interested in understanding what Schwing meant in describing as "Skeet Grade" the particular wood and barrel treatments he says Winchester associated with the Skeet designation beginning in 1936. You've seen "Skeet Finish" instead of "Skeet Gun" on Cody letters, right? I'd be interested to know if the term begins to appear in 1936. To the extent consistently defined "finish" is a characteristic of M-21 grades, can we accept that by "Skeet Grade" Schwing means that from 1936 on guns marked as SKEET have the finish characteristics he stated -- rather than being skeet-purposed guns in other finishes/grades? Is there something subversive in understanding or explaining Schwing this way?

I don't see harm in speculating to reconcile apparent inconsistencies -- such as defining the "Skeet Gun" as a gun in any grade that's purposed for skeet ... except when it's not at all suitable for shooting skeet and may have finish characteristics that differ from recognized grades.

It's just a fun speculative discussion for me, and I can't imagine my speculation carries enough weight with anyone else to enter "the bank of collector information"! If it inexplicably does, I hope it's in fact what I've written in trying to understand Schwing's contribution to "the bank" rather than the mistaken way you've characterized it.

Jay

P.S. If you misconstrue harmless discussion as a challenge to your authority as guardian of "the bank of collector information", then yeah, you really should get over yourself.

In seven pages of conversation, you have insisted that Skeet Grade Model 21s exist in fact and in Winchester advertising. That is not so. However, that is not important, at least in your mind. You seem to have little respect for the "bank of information" and think that Schwing's incorrect information should be considered correct for collectors in the future. So be it. However, I will not buy into it. This is not harmless discussion as you describe it. It is you putting out incorrect informaton for seven pages of internet forum, and you discrediting those who correct your errors and post correct information. I'm not doing this for fun. If I were doing it for fun, I would have been finished after page 1.

Sorry Mr. Bore, I'm calling BULL$HIT!

I will once again not speak for Jay (although I completely understand Jays point of view and have appreciated his input on this thread).
Mr Bore, if you would be so kind as to point out in any one of my posts where I "insisted" on anything.

Suggesting alternative scenarios based on apriori knowledge seemed to me to be a constructive contribution to this thread and site.
I was unaware of the forum rule that states that once you've spoken, the discussion is over.

Bill, I have never stated much less insisted that Skeet Grade M-21s exist -- neither in fact nor in advertising. If fact I've explicitly agreed with you several times that they do not exist in advertising, and I've said it just this clearly in my posts above. I don't think Schwing's use of the term "Skeet Grade" is correct. I've only said I think it's likely he found something in Winchester's production records for 1936 and after that may be reflected in Cody letters as "Skeet Finish", that he chose to describe as "Skeet Grade". It's just a speculative suggestion, not even really an opinion because I'm ready to abandon it as soon as someone reports "Skeet Finish" on a pre-1936 Cody letter.

Far from putting out wrong information, I've not put out ANY information other than quoting Schwing's puzzling statement about "Skeet Grade". I've simply suggested a way to reconcile information that in some aspects seems inconsistent. Where have I discredited anyone?? Geez Bill, you're all alone in making this an argument over "Skeet Grade" -- it's really about perceiving harmless discussion as questioning your authority. No one else that was with you about the literature (which I fully accept as accurate!) is with you in mischaracterizing attempts to learn whether Schwing found something changed in 1936 but named it in a way Winchester didn't.

Whether you won't take the time to actually read what Bob and I are saying or you're unable to discard pre-conceptions that cause you to misinterpret, in either case there's no point and it's not worth the aggravation to explain any more what I can't make any more clear.

Jay

Hey-any of you guys ever see the movie "Diner"-- The anal-reflective dweeb who drives the big old Hudson Hornet-and his whole live centers around: Music/record trivia-and fries with gravy at the Fell's Point diner?? Schweebie? Get a life, already. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot difference does it make how the earlier M21's were marked on the receiver flooplate. A friend has a M21 his Grandfather bought in 1939-for grouse hunting- 20 gauge 26" barrels- sn 9139- double triggers, ejectors, straight hand stock with that fine wood grain and checkering pre-WW2 Winchesters often had--and on the receiver floor plate- it is stamped TRAP- No more a Trap gun than my M12 Pigeon Grade 12 gauge TRAP gun 30" full- is a woodcock gun-- what's in a name, aye- there's the rub..And as the grand Duke once said: "It don't mean a thing if it ain't written by Schwing"- paraphrased of course.. RWTF

Somewhere I have a partial box for a 21 skeet gun.In fact I have a bunch of boxes for different guns that I got from a sporting goods store that went out of business many years ago.Just my 2 cents worth.