March
S M T W T F S
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31
Who's Online Now
1 members (trw999), 852 guests, and 5 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums10
Topics38,374
Posts544,014
Members14,391
Most Online1,258
Mar 29th, 2024
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,398
Likes: 307
Sidelock
***
OP Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,398
Likes: 307
Here is a more concise version, and I am simply a collector and organizer of the data that Larry Brown, the Google guy, Dave Noreen, and many others have contributed.
I'm most happy to correct anything that can be documented to be in error.

Turn-of-the-Century Shotshells, Powder, Proof & Ballistics
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1F2sQuPm05IE4VWYYnCkvuXmYEzQoWd_SQgaAfUOZEFU/preview

Summary of c. 1895 - 1920 pressures, extrapolated to modern piezo transducer numbers

c. 1900: The “standard” 12 gauge field and inanimate target load was 1 1/4 oz. shot with 3 1/4 Dram Equivalent (1220 fps) of Bulk Smokeless with a modern transducer pressure of 8000 - 9500 psi.
Just before WWI: The “standard” 12g field and inanimate target load was 1 1/8 oz. shot with 3 Dr. Eq. (1200 fps) Dense Smokeless with a transducer pressure of 8,500 - 10,000 psi.

12g
(For reference, 1 1/8 oz. 3 Drams (1200 fps) of DuPont FFFg Black Powder (82 grains) is about 5000 psi.)
1 1/8 oz. 3 Drams (83 gr) Curtis & Harvey’s No. 4, T.S. Black Powder (similar to FFFg) was about 6500 psi.
1 1/8 oz. 3 Dram Equivalent of BULK Smokeless was 6500 - 7500 psi.
1 1/8 oz. 3 Dr. Eq. of DENSE Smokeless was 9000 - 10,000 psi.
1 1/8 oz. 3 1/4 Dr. Eq. BULK Smokeless was about 8500 psi.
1 1/8 oz. 3 1/4 Dr. Eq. DENSE Smokeless was 9500 - 10,500 psi.
1 1/4 oz. 3 1/2 Dr. Eq. BULK Smokeless was about 11,750 psi
1 1/4 oz. 3 1/2 Dr. Eq. DENSE Smokeless was about 12,600 psi
The modern SAAMI 12g maximum 2 3/4" and 3" pressure is 11,500 psi

16g
1 oz. 2 3/4 Dr. Eq. BULK Smokeless was about 7000 psi.

20g
7/8 oz. 2 1/2 Dr. Eq. DENSE Smokeless was about 11,000 psi.
7/8 oz. 2 1/2 Dr. Eq. BULK Smokeless was 8000-9000 psi


British Nitro Loads
Sporting Guns and Gunpowders: Comprising a Selection from Reports of Experiments, and Other Articles Published in the "Field" Newspaper, Relative to Firearms and Explosives, Volumes 1-2, 1897
https://books.google.com/books?id=inQCAAAAYAAJ
“New Rules of Proof”
https://books.google.com/books?id=inQCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA7&dq
“Under the 1896 Supplementary Nitro Proof Rules, the Nitro Proof Charge was not fixed. It could be changed by the Proof Houses as existing powders changed or new products released. The Proof Houses would determine the charge in order to keep the pressure 80 - 100% above that of the Service Charge.”
Pressures were measured using crushers (LUP) and reported in pounds/ sq. inch and modern piezoelectric transducer pressures would be 10 - 14% higher.




“Experiments by Mr. R.W.S. Griffith of the Schultze Powder Co.”, 1894
Sporting Guns and Gunpowder
https://books.google.com/books?id=inQCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA38&dq

LOADS………………......………...…….....………11/8oz….1oz....7/8oz.
……………………………..………………................12g…..16g...20g
Curtis & Harvey No. 4 T.S. Black Powder…..82……74……66 grains
Schultze and “E.C.” Bulk Smokeless.……..….42……37……33
Walsrode Dense Smokeless...………………......28……24……22

Chamber Pressure was expressed in Tons/sq. inch: Using the estimated Long Tons Lead Crusher Pressure (Cp) conversion to PSI (pound force per square inch) (Cp x 1.5) - .5 = TSI, TSI X 2240 = PSI

…...……………..12……….16….…….20
C.&H. No. 4…6,373…..7,078…..6,944
C.&H. No. 2…7,459…..8,310..…8,288
Schultze……..4,424…..6,272…..7,246
“E.C.”…….…..3,685…..6,171…..8,322
Walsrode….….9,363……...….….10,741
S.S.…......…..9,800……...……….10,539
(S.S. - Smokeless Shot-gun)

The standard 2 1/2” 12g British load according to the 1907 edition of Greener's The Gun was 1 1/8 oz. 3 1/4 dram (1255 fps).

For a time the British indicated the load for which the gun was designed.

1896 Lancaster
42 grains = 3 Drams "E.C." with 1 1/8 oz. shot



Or on the hang tag. 1906 H&H
42 grains Schultz = 3 dram



1904-1925 only the shot charge and “Nitro Proof” were stamped.



1897 - 1903 the Belgians provided specific load instructions stamped on the barrels.
Pre-1924 Manufacture Liegeoise d' Armes a Feu 16g
Bore 17.0 mm = .669";
Right choke 16.9mm = .665= Improved Cylinder; Left choke 16.4mm = .646 = Improved Modified
Proved with E.C. No. 3 - New E.C. (Improved) No. 3 was Bulk Smokeless powder and was introduced in the U.S. in 1904; 11 grains = 1 dram equivalent.
Load markings: 1.81 grams "poudre" = 28 grains; E.C. No. 3, Walsrode Gray or Mullerite No. 2 = 2 1/2 Dram Equivalent.
24.5 grams "plombs" (lead) shot is 7/8 oz.



A 12g intended for the U.S. market with "E.C. No. 3", a 33 grain bulk powder = 3 Dram, with 1 1/8 oz. shot




The U.S. makers listed appropriate loads on Hang Tags

Standard loads found on L.C. Smith hang tags:
12 gauge.....3 dram.....1 1/4 oz. shot (1887 - about 1920)
................3 dram.....1 1/8 oz. shot (after about 1920)
16 gauge.....2 1/2 dram..1 oz. shot (introduced 1896)
20 gauge.....2 1/4 dram..7/8 oz. shot (introduced 1907)


And in their catalogs:

1914 A.H. Fox Catalog courtesy of David Noreen




Just before WWI, things got MUCH more complicated with a great variety of Bulk and Dense Smokeless powders, with different grain Dram Equivalents.

42 grain = 3 Dram Equivalent Bulk Powders
“E.C.” No. 1
“Schultze”
Curtis & Harvey “Amberite” (40 grains)
Sporting Smokeless Powder Syn., Ltd “Cannonite Shot-gun”
Smokeless Powder Co. “S.S.” (Smokeless Shot-gun) (43 grains)
Cooppal & Co. “Cooppal’s No. 1”
United States Smokeless Powder Co. “Gold Dust”
Dynamit Nobel’s Troisdorf Powder Co. “Troisdorf” (41.5 grains)
American Wood Powder
“J.B.” Powder

36 Grain = 3 Dram Equivalent Bulk Powders
DuPont Bulk (36.5 grains)
Hazard Powder Co. “Blue Ribbon” (37 grains)
“E.C.” No. 2 (Improved)
“New Schultze”

33 Grain = 3 Dram Equivalent Bulk Powders
“New E.C. (Improved) No. 3” (Introduced in U.S. in 1904)
Curtis & Harvey “Smokeless Diamond” (1903)
Walsrode Smokeless & Waterproof Gun Powder Co. “Walsrode Gray”
Louis Muller & Cie S.A. “Mullerite No. 2”
Nobel’s Explosive Co. “Empire”
“Cooppal’s No. 2” (30 grains = 3 Dr. Eq.)

DENSE Smokeless

……....……Walsrode Green…...Ballistite…...….Infallible
3 Dram...............30………..…...24..............21 grains
3 1/4 Dram..........32……..….…..26..............23 grains
3 1/2 Dram..........34………..…...28..............25 grains


Major Sir Gerald Burrard, in the 1944/1947 Second Edition of The Modern Shotgun, Vol. III “The Gun and the Cartridge”, states during WWI the standard 12g load was dropped by law (to conserve the supplies of lead and powder) to 1 oz. and 3 Dr. Eq.
After the War, the standard for 2 1/2” shells became 1 1/16 oz. with 42 grains (Old) Schultze Bulk (3 Dram), 36 grains “E.C. (Improved)” or 33 grains Imperial Chemical Industries (Eley & Kynoch Cartridges) Dense Smokeless Diamond powder.

In the 1925 British Proof House revisions, the 2 1/2” & 2 5/8” 12g service load was reduced to 3 Drams with 1 1/8 oz. shot with a mean service pressure of 3 1/4 tons = (converted using Burrard's forumula to) 9,682 psi. Until the 1954 revision, only the chamber length was marked.

After the 1924 Belgian Proof House revisions, a Certificat d’epreuve could be issued and specified:
“The pressure developed, measured by crusher type device international standard, lower or equal to 600 kg per square centimeter for sizes 16, l2, 10, 8 & 4; 670 kg per square inch for sizes 20, 24 and smaller.”
600 kg/cm2 = 8534 psi SERVICE pressure;
670 kg/cm2 = 9530 psi SERVICE pressure
+ 10 - 14% by piezoelectric transducer measurement.
20 g was PROVED at 1000 kg/cm2 = 14,223 psi
12g PROVED at 900 kg/cm2 = 12,801 psi
Modern transducer numbers for 20g would be close to 15,500 psi; 12g about 14,000 psi.

In the 1954 British Rules of Proof the service pressure was now expressed in TONS and was measured by LUP.
Vic Venters (Jan/Feb 2009 Shooting Sportsman) quoted Roger Lees (Birmingham Proofmaster, both before and after the switch to the 1954 Rules): “The proof loads now set down in [the 1954 Rules] are almost in every instance the proof loading in use under the 1925 rules. In general it may be said that under the new Rules of Proof no arm will receive a more severe proof than hitherto.”
The equivalent transducer values courtesy of Larry Brown, per the Birmingham Proof House are as follows:
3 tons/ sq. inch = 8,938 psi
(Using Burrard's formula to convert TONS per square inch expressed as LUP to modern piezoelectric transducer PSI [3 Tons X 1.5] - .5 X 2240 = 8,960 psi)
3 1/4 tons = 9,682 psi
3 1/2 tons = 10,427 psi
4 tons = 11,917 psi

The Commission Internationale Permanente pour l'Epreuve des Armes ŕ Feu Portatives standards were not ratified until 1969.
http://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation/en/tdcc_public?page=1&cartridge_type_id=7
Numbers are transducer BAR converted to psi.
12g 65mm and 70mm “standard proof” lead or steel (limited to no larger than 3.25 mm and max. fps 1,300). SERVICE pressure 740 BAR = 10,733 psi; Maximum statistical individual pressure 850 BAR = 12,328 psi; PROOF 930 BAR = 13,489 psi
12g 76 mm = 3” lead “High performance/superior proof”: Service 1050 BAR = 15,229 psi; Maximum statistical individual pressure 1200 BAR = 17,405 psi; Magnum proof 1320 BAR = 19,145 psi
Both 65 and 70 mm 16g standard is SERVICE 780 BAR or 11,313 psi; Maximum SERVICE 900 BAR or 13,053 psi; PROOF 980 BAR or 14,214 psi.
Both 65 and 70 mm 20g standard is SERVICE 830 BAR or 12,038 psi; Maximum SERVICE 950 BAR or 13,779 psi; PROOF 1040 BAR or 15,084 psi.

The British joined CIP in 1980 but the Proof House did not make CIP standards uniform until 1989. All proof data was marked in metric using the BAR as the unit of measurement. The use of TONS per sq. inch was dropped. Under this system, 2 1/2” chambered 12g guns were usually proofed at 850 BAR (the old 3 TONS/ sq. inch). 2 3/4” chambered may be proofed 900 BAR (old 3 1/4 TONS) or higher.


And in parting please remember Proverbs 1:32 (revdocdrew non-inspired version)
“The waywardness of the simple will kill them, and the complacency of fools will destroy them (and their barrels).”



Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 3,063
Likes: 565
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 3,063
Likes: 565
Good stuff Dr. Drew, thank you!

Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 906
Likes: 30
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 906
Likes: 30
Request to delete submitted.

Originally Posted By: Drew Hause
The oft' cited thread on the 16ga site was posted in 2007 and needs to be revised, but can not longer be edited.
http://www.16ga.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3428&sid=3f93b276c45276bae6859af3339bedb7
I'm going to copy this to the 16ga site and possibly someone could ask the "management" to delete the old thread.





Bill Johnson
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,372
Likes: 103
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,372
Likes: 103
Doc Drew, re the Brits and CIP: They joined CIP in 1980. They revised their rules of proof in 1984. However, there was a "transition period" from 1984-89 when the individual submitting a gun for proof (or reproof) could request either the previous imperial proofmarks (tons) or the new metric ones (bars).

As I understand it, only the proofmarks rather than the proof pressures were changed when the current rules of proof were adopted (2005). There is no longer any numerical indication of either proof or service pressure. The former 850 bar guns are now marked STD (standard) under one crown; the former 1200 bar guns are marked SUP (superior) under two crowns.

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743
Drew;
Extremely good post. I do want to mention one thing though. Simply multiplying tons by 2240 will give pounds, thus 3ĽT x 2240 = 7280 lbs. This was of course the crusher pressure.
the "Formula" (Tons CP x 1.5)-.5 = PSI thus 9800 PSI is transducer pressure. The statement made by Burrard in presenting this formula was that it was not exact as there is no formula which could directly convert one to the other. The results would actually be in the form of a curve. The point here was that within the range of normal shotgun pressures the formula This "Line" followed the "Curve" close enough to be of practical use. The formulas stated to have been derived by the British ammunition makers with pressure barrels fitted with both types of instruments, thus simultaneously recording both crusher & transducer pressures with the same shot.


Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,398
Likes: 307
Sidelock
***
OP Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,398
Likes: 307
As always, thank you Larry, Miller and those who PM'd me.
MILLER: Was Major Sir Gerald Burrard's conversion forumula in the 1944/1947 Second Edition of The Modern Shotgun?

1. I am of the OPINION that the conversion formula significantly under-estimates modern transducer derived psi, and am working on justifying that opinion SO adding 10-15% (thank you Larry) is appropriate.

2. I am also of the opinion that the current CIP transducer system under-reports whatever is being used in the U.S.

Baschieri & Pellagri 16g F2 Classic is factory listed at 9,867 psi but testing by Tom Armbrust showed it to be 10,500.

Gamebore Traditional Game 16g 28gm (1 oz.) was reported at 8122 psi but pressure testing by Tom Armbrust showed it to be 8400 psi.


Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,398
Likes: 307
Sidelock
***
OP Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 9,398
Likes: 307
OK. I've sorta changed what remains of my mind smile

This is the best pressure data I've found comparing LUP expressed in TONS and transducer psi for Dense Smokeless

“Powder Pressures At Different Parts of the Gunbarrel, 1895”
https://books.google.com/books?id=inQCAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA32&dq
32 grains of Ballistite is confusing, as 24 grains is the published load for a 3 Dram equivalent.
Alfred Nobel's 'Ballistite' was introduced in 1887, patented in 1888, then ‘Sporting Ballistite’ (for shotgun shells) was patented in 1889, but not released to the trade by Nobel’s Explosive Co. until 1895. The published summary of the Trial states ‘Ballistite’ rather than ‘Sporting Ballistite’.
32 Gr Ballistite (1 1/8 oz. at 1232 fps = 3 Dram Equiv.)
Breech - 2.9 Tons per Square Inch (UK, Long) = 8624 psi
(2.9 x 1.5 = 4.35, 4.35 - .5 = 3.85 TSI, 3.85 x 2240 = 8624 psi)

Ballistite is long gone, but Infallible remains as a slightly reformulated Unique (but 21 gr. still = 3 Dr. Eq.). They were reported to generate similar pressures but I've found no actual psi/tons comparison.

For comparison per the Alliant site
http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/recipedetail.aspx?shotype=&weight=1.125&weightdis=1+1%2f8&shellid=495&gtypeid=3&gauge=12
Federal Paper 1 1/8 oz. at 1200 fps with plastic wad and 21-22 grains Unique = 7,200 – 8,600 psi

The 1963 George Herter “Reloaders Handbook” lists 23 grains (3 1/4 Dr. Eq.) of Infallible/ Unique with 1 1/8 oz. shot in a paper case with paper wads (card & fiber) at 8,725 psi by LUP.
For comparison:
Federal Paper 1 1/8 oz. at 1250 fps with plastic wad and 22 – 23 gr. Unique = 8,300 - 9,500 psi.


The Problem With Measuring Pressure

Wallace H. Coxe, in “Smokeless Shotgun Powders: Their Development, Composition and Ballistic Characteristics” published by E.I. du Pont de Nemours & Co., 1927, “Measurement of Pressures”
The common method of taking pressures in small arms in this country is known as the Radial Pressure system. A housing is built around the barrel, and a hole drilled through the housing and barrel into the chamber at a distance of 1 inch from the breech and at right angles to the axis of the bore. The hole is then bushed and drilled to a uniform diameter of 0.2250 inch. Then a piston is made the length of the piston hole and 0.2250 inch in diameter. Next the piston hole is lapped to permit the piston to fit snugly without either sticking or getting out of alignment.
In firing the gauge, the piston is inserted and seated, then a lead crusher cylinder is placed on the head of the piston and held firmly in place by a screw and anvil attachment built into the housing. When the cartridge is fired, a portion of the same gas pressure that pushes the bullet through the barrel drives the piston against the lead cylinder and compresses it.
The length of the lead crusher cylinder after compression is naturally less than before the shot was fired and the difference between the original length and the length after compression therefore represents the amount of pressure which has acted upon the lead. Thee exact pressure is read from a table giving a pressure reading for every remaining length reading and commonly called a Tarage Table.
Pressures that are determined at ballistic laboratories are merely relative values and are not absolute values.

NOTE: The Tarage Table conversion may be for pressure expressed as Tons / Sq. Inch or Pounds/ Sq. Inch (PSI).

Major Sir Gerald Burrard wrote in the 1955 third edition of The Modern Shotgun about the under-reporting of pressure by LUP:
“The calibration of lead crushers by means of the piezoelectric gauge suggests that lead crusher pressures are somewhat on the low side; 2 Tons per square inch being about 2.5 with the piezoelectric gauge…”

Burrard's conversion formula for long tons/sq. inch as measured by LUP (crushers) is probably close to modern piezoelectric transducer measured pounds/sq. inch (psi).
Since we cannot KNOW the conversion for psi as measured by LUP to psi as measured by transducers, adding 10% to the load pressures reported as psi by LUP seems reasonable.



Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 931
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 931
This one has to go to "memories", if not saved on hard drive. Congratulations!

One note of the use of the "Field" data. Contemporaries accused the Field, and personally Horatio Phillips, the gun editor, of misinterpreting data from pressure tests. One Max Baker, editor of "Arms and Explosives" magazine, claimed that Phillips interpreted data obtained by one pressure gun using tables from another pressure gun, and thus got wrong results. An account of the argument is given by Teasdale-Buckell in his "Experts on Guns and Shooting", 1900 (available at www.archive.org).

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,372
Likes: 103
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,372
Likes: 103
Pressure can be a complicated and confusing area. Thanks, Drew, for your efforts in trying to help us understand the crux of what's important to US: What we should shoot in our vintage doubles.

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,127
Likes: 1129
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,127
Likes: 1129
This is priceless information for many here, Drew. Thanks so much for your efforts in compiling and posting this.

All my best, SRH


May God bless America and those who defend her.
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Link Copied to Clipboard

doublegunshop.com home | Welcome | Sponsors & Advertisers | DoubleGun Rack | Doublegun Book Rack

Order or request info | Other Useful Information

Updated every minute of everyday!


Copyright (c) 1993 - 2024 doublegunshop.com. All rights reserved. doublegunshop.com - Bloomfield, NY 14469. USA These materials are provided by doublegunshop.com as a service to its customers and may be used for informational purposes only. doublegunshop.com assumes no responsibility for errors or omissions in these materials. THESE MATERIALS ARE PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANT-ABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NON-INFRINGEMENT. doublegunshop.com further does not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials. doublegunshop.com shall not be liable for any special, indirect, incidental, or consequential damages, including without limitation, lost revenues or lost profits, which may result from the use of these materials. doublegunshop.com may make changes to these materials, or to the products described therein, at any time without notice. doublegunshop.com makes no commitment to update the information contained herein. This is a public un-moderated forum participate at your own risk.

Note: The posting of Copyrighted material on this forum is prohibited without prior written consent of the Copyright holder. For specifics on Copyright Law and restrictions refer to: http://www.copyright.gov/laws/ - doublegunshop.com will not monitor nor will they be held liable for copyright violations presented on the BBS which is an open and un-moderated public forum.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.0.33-0+deb9u11+hw1 Page Time: 0.085s Queries: 35 (0.058s) Memory: 0.8839 MB (Peak: 1.8987 MB) Data Comp: Off Server Time: 2024-03-29 08:10:19 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS