doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com new collector

Crescent guns have cast steel frames, which are undesirable due to lack of strength. Also, their quality of workmanship is lacking.

The question is why is he becoming a collector? Is it to make money over time as gun values increase? Is it as a hobby and he is going to shoot his collection? Those answers will tell you which direction to go.

If you are looking for guns as a investment stop and don't waste your time and money. The chances of making major profits that way are near lottery odds. Doubles in all but the higher grades have been a flat or declining investment for several years and I don't see that trend changing. Just how many old men are coming along who want to shoot or hunt with Sid by sees? Fewer each year. Low grade guns can be bought for the same or lesser prices than they bought 8-10 years ago.

Rare and high grade guns will command good prices still and should in the future but there are no guarantees. Antique China commanded higher prices in the past and friends in the business tell me they are stuck with a lot of nice rare China with almost no on interested in buying it. The next generation are sellers of stuff not buyers like my generation has been. Simple supply and demand.

If you like to shoot, pick a brand you like and buy the highest condition examples you can find and treat them kindly while shooting them. Or collect examples of some feature like different locking or opening systems. These are fascinating mechanical devices which show endless creative examples of design and improvement as well as dead end designs.

Here's my humble opinion, based on what I consider to be current market. I'll stick to Vintage Guns, generally made before WWI. I divide'em into "Tiers", based on price. Generally, I'm referring to restoration guns, in 15% condition or less but absent of egregious faults such as severely cut-down barrels and stocks, missing pieces, and tubes honed down to the point of being unshootable. This list is also what I've seen most available over the last few years. In each tier I'll list the more desirable guns first. If you can find a higher grade within these ranges, it's an even better deal. You won't find these prices on the internet or from a Dealer, but usually at local auctions.

Tier One. $250-$400, (depending upon condition)

Remington 1900, preferably a KED
Remington 1889, Preferably a Grade 3 Damascus, but the Grade 2 Twist is nice, as is the Grade 1 steel barrel gun.
Baker Batavia Leader.
Ithaca Field Grade guns, (Pre-NID) preferably with Twist or Damascus tubes.
Other Twist barrels guns made by smaller companies such as Syracuse, NR Davis, Hopkins & Allen, etc.
Crescents
Belgian low-grade guns, but you can sometimes find gems in this category as well.

Tier 2, $400-$800.

Parker PH and GH.
English Hammer guns.

Tier 3, $800+

Parker DH, and higher-grade guns in general.

This is a very simple guide, and I'm sure others will contribute their views.

Regards
Ken

Nothing worth owning is undervalued in the world of quality sxs's. There's always the odd great deal to be stumbled upon by blind luck, but is so rare as to be hardly worth mention.

He needs to figure out what he likes, what he can afford, and what he's going to do with it after he buys. There are so many pitfalls in this scenario that it's almost impossible to give any guidance to someone like him. So many little details and nuances about all of these guns that make or break them.

The dealers have so many tentacles that reach into all the markets it has become a rat race to the hole trying to find anything worth buying at a reasonable price. He's about to learn some expensive lessons. Dealers and individuals alike will lie with a straight face if they see a mullet with money.

My only suggestion is to buy the highest condition he can afford, regardless of what it is. But if he's going to go hunt with it and put hickies on it, be prepared for the consequences.

But to your question, perhaps the 12 ga. pre-1913 L C Smiths such as a 2E or 3E that has not been f*cked with.
JR

I keep hearing that the SxS double gun market is fading and that prices are stagnant because new collectors and shooters are not replacing the current crop. But that is not at all what I see, across the spectrum, from parts guns to shooters to high condition and high grade guns. I'm specifically talking about vintage American doubles which is where my interests are greatest.

I started out concentrating on L.C. Smiths, but would buy anything that piqued my interest and was priced right. I have not seen any L.C. Smiths that are selling for less than I could frequently buy them for 8, 10, 15 years ago. Same with Parkers. One reason I shifted my interests to Syracuse Lefevers is that they seemed to be very undervalued compared to Smiths and Parkers, especially considering their much lower production numbers. That situation has changed dramatically, and actual selling prices are much higher than they were. Not only that, but I am seeing more bidders on average in the internet auctions I watch, and I am seeing a lot of new screen names of bidders who I never saw only a few years ago. The good old days for buying Lefevers are largely over.

Remingtons are still kind of a sleeper, and bargains can be found if you shop carefully. Same with Ithacas. My last N.I.D. was a nice all original early field grade 16 gauge with very good bluing, wood, and over 60% case colors. It sat all day, 2 or 3 years ago, at a pretty large gun show with a $275 price tag on it. Cheap! I kept telling myself I didn't need it, and at the end of the day, I bought it for $225. Bakers were selling very reasonably 10-15 years ago, but they too have shot up considerably since about 2008. Foxes took a big jump when McIntosh's book came out, and asking prices were often higher than Blue Book. I went a long time without buying a Fox for that reason. They seem to have stabilized in recent years, but sure haven't dropped much, if at all, especially in the smaller gauges. I don't think I have a double in my collection that I couldn't sell for a profit at this time. Are there investments that would have done better? Absolutely. But you can't shoot gold, silver, real estate, or stock certificates. However, once I had enough guns, I made it a rule to never pay too much or to let my emotions drive my purchases. I don't NEED any gun, so I can afford to wait for the good deals that inevitably happen. Knowing what you are buying is extremely important. Knowing how to buy lets you have more toys to play with.

Your friend needs an education fast before he spends much money. Never buy a gun with major repair issues. Best way to figure out gun values is to watch a auction site like Gunbroker and see completed sales. You will see very quickly that 95% of guns listed don't sell and almost all that do sell have no reserve price. That means the seller started them very low and let the bidders decide on what they thought it was worth. Fair market value, for that gun, that day. Set your searches to show only guns with no reserve because they represent almost all of the guns which really sell on that site. By default the rest are priced at full retail or retail plus prices or they would be already sold. You do this by using the advance search feature on the site.

As to brands in the beginning is stick to Sterlingworths, Ithaca NID, Remington 1894 or 1900. LCSmiths are good but often have minor stock cracking issues. Parker are over priced by people who buy the name not the gun, just as Winchester and Browning names on guns. Set your spending limit at 500 and wait until the right gun comes along.

If he likes the Remington 1900 have him look at 1894's also. Little better quality but mostly seen in Damascus. Learn about Twist, Damascus and steel barrels as well as what are safe to shoot shells are for each. These old guns are not to be shot with modern factory shells, they need ammo designed for their period. More 5-7,000 psi than 10-12,000 psi of today's shells. That's ok because reloading 12 ammo is easy and economical still.

And understand all the stories you hear about that great sale someone missed buying don't out weigh the thousands of guns bought for too much that people never want to mention. Often the best thing to do is think about it and then forget about it the next day.

I don't know how one could advise another what to collect. The nature of collecting requires an interest, passion, and dedication that results in an on going education. Read, learn, and watch. Buy what you like when you can find it at a price for you. It can be done on a low budget. There is no magic number you must buy instantly or yearly or whatever. Watch and learn and seize opportunities, some will be better than others but there is no reason to "shoot low" due to budget. Just look that much harder. That's most of the fun

Don't forget the ever infallible collecting technique of sucking up to old geezers, (or more correctly, their wives) that already have large accumulations of doubles.
That's the surest way to get in the game deep for cheap.

Lots and lots of good advice here....As a MOAB (Man On A Budget) myself, I can appreciate the desire to own a thing of useful beauty. Before your friend does anything else, he ought to do 3 things, 1) read as much of the threads on this site as possible, and 2) order some back issues of the Double Gun Journal and 3) figure out why he wants to collect older American doubles.

In my case it was due to my duck hunting obsession.

I had a subscription to the DGJ for a couple of years before buying my first Rem 1894 10 ga. I knew that doing so would obligate me to low pressure shells. In other words I went into that purchase with eyes wide open as to it's feeding requirements.

He can't do too much research....

John

My advice would be to spend the money and buy what the rich like. Lets see, who is the best shotgun maker in Birmingham. I would say William Powell. Given that I would look for old SLE from that maker in good original condition.